110 miles, 53 hours: Questions for Diana Nyad

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  • I dug this up from her blog WRT Manhattan.

    http://archive.diananyad.com/history-rewritten…-to-my-great-surprise/

    This quote by her is particularly interesting:
    "The history is unclear. The dissemination of accurate information has not followed an empirical path."


    Seems similar to what we're seeing today. ;)
  • troubletrouble San FranciscoMember
    edited September 2013
    I think DN’s team would be willing to answer your questions which are probably best addressed to the lead shark diver.
    [link to context, several pages ago]

    Just an update for anyone who was interested in what occurred when I attempted to get answers to the questions I had posted to this thread about the role of the shark divers. After my last post, Steve Munatones put me in touch with Richard Thiess, who in turn put me in touch with Luke Tipple. Luke was a member of the shark diver team on Nyad's recent attempts.

    Luke did not ultimately answer any of my questions. I wish I could say that I clearly understood his reasoning. At first glance, it seemed to be due to the confidentiality of his clients. But I got the impression from the later portion of his email that he would be willing to answer the questions if they were brought to him by other clients attempting the same swim or by reporters.

    Upon learning that I hadn't received answers to my questions, Steve Munatones stepped in and provided quite a bit of information about the role of the shark divers based on Nyad's earlier swim.

    To me, it is interesting that we had such high hopes for disclosure from Nyad's team! The longer we go without hearing answers to questions and seeing thorough documentation, the less I expect that we'll get those answers.
  • edited September 2013
    @trouble, Just a very brief limited comment here to provide factual background. As far as the roles of the "shark divers" Luke Tipple wasnt there in 2013. We were supposed have 8 shark divers but ended up with only 4 so I played both roles. There was no effort to "bait" sharks, what ever that is! We only had lights or PVC prods. The plan, as far as I understood it, was to have frequent perimeter sweeps to look for threats and report a threat and get the swimmer out if necessary. We were under strict orders not to harm any shark and we had no lethal weapons. I have dove many times with pelagic sharks on drift dives at night and as a rule they may come by to check you out or bump things in the water but without fish or bait in the water I have never seen them become aggressive or hang around for long. We saw no sharks on this crossing. The shark shield devices hanging from kayaks are supposed to emit a electrical field that has been apparently shown to keep sharks at least 30 ft away.
    Specifically you asked:
    1. What was the exact role these shark divers were hired for?

    detection, warning, non violent defensive steps, prod aggressive animal with pvc pipe etc
    a. What parameters for their behavior set in place prior to the swim?

    absolutely no lethal force to be used
    b. Were they to lure sharks away? With what tools?

    no
    c. Were they asked to kill sharks if they attacked the swimmer or a crew member?

    no
    2. What role did the shark divers actually play during the swim?

    detection, routine perimeter sweeps all night long
    a. Did they encounter any sharks or other dangerous ocean creatures?

    no sharks, only hazardous marine life were jellies and fire worms
    b.Did they engage with them? In what way?

    no
    c. Did they lure sharks away from the swimmer using bait? (If so, this seems enormously misguided as they could just as easily be luring sharks from further afield to the swimmer.)

    no
    3. How close did the shark divers get to the swimmer?

    divers were not permitted close to the swimmer except when instructed
    a. If pace swimmers aren't customarily permitted to swim in front of swimmers, does that hold true of the shark divers?

    divers were not pace swimmers, divers were doing perimeter sweeps, swimmer was flanked by kayaks
    Some reports seem to indicate they were flitting about closely in front of and around Nyad.

    no divers had fast/thrust type, long-blade, carbon freedive fins which would make swimming near the swimmer at her speed very difficult
    b. Is it possible that Nyad was able to draft off of a fin-wearing shark diver?"

    no, she was not able to draft a diver, she swam through open water, flanked by kayaks and with we divers swimming intermittent perimeter sweeps and surface free dives abeam or behind her down to the thermocline to look for hazardous marine life (jellies, sharks sword fish, etc). We saw no sharks either night.
  • troubletrouble San FranciscoMember
    edited September 2013
    @AngelYanagihara thank you for taking the time to share this information - it is very helpful and I appreciate your responding.

    With regards to your question about "baiting" sharks, I asked that because I recall reading that shark divers in Penny Palfrey's Cayman Island swim had used recently killed fish to lure sharks away from the swimmer and into another area. I have questions about the safety of that practice and am glad to hear your report that nothing like that was done during Nyad's swim.

    I'm also curious about the picture @Niek posted on 9/20 on the forum, which seems to show a diver very close beneath Nyad, seeming to touch her. Nyad seems quite high up out of the water, in a position very different from the position I'm able to maintain while feeding (only my head is typically out of the water during feeds). Do you have any idea what was happening when that photo was taken?
  • rlmrlm Senior Member
    She either has a good egg-beater going or she is lifting herself up (off of a hand) to receive a delivery of food. The straight forearm suggests she is leveraging herself up off of the hand/underwater support.
  • RonCollinsRonCollins Clearwater, Florida, USAMember
    Where's the video footage they promised, showing the 30 minute change into the stinger suit? How about a picture of the drafting device they said was hanging off the boat? When their movie is finished, will there be footage from the recent swim, or just previous swims?

    Ron Collins
    Clearwater, Florida
    DistanceMatters.com

  • Just a gut feeling, but it's likely that answers to any questions, data, etc will not be forthcoming until after the movie (debuts 26 Sept) has had its run, if ever. Bad for the box office.

    -LBJ

    “Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde

  • Niek wrote:
    I still have some unanswered questions for DN & co

    You ask questions like that and then you wonder why they don't answer them. Why don't you ask some without all the sarcasm.

  • sylmarinosylmarino San FranciscoMember
    @Pochi - I believe a number of these questions were asked prior not only politely but with a high degree of confidence given that DN and crew themselves stated all information would be swiftly forthcoming.

    The fact that it still has not materialized is not a reflection of the open water swimming community but of the swimmer and her crew.
  • sylmarino wrote:
    @Pochi - I believe a number of these questions were asked prior not only politely but with a high degree of confidence given that DN and crew themselves stated all information would be swiftly forthcoming.

    The fact that it still has not materialized is not a reflection of the open water swimming community but of the swimmer and her crew.

    Niek might be nice person but in this thread he comes off as someone who has a big chip on his shoulder towards "Superwoman". In this thread it was hinted that she was being pulled via the boat or traveled on the boat or in someway didn't swim the whole way. I understand this is not an unassisted swim but to hint that she didn't swim the whole way with no proof is not very nice.

    Maybe some day someone will make it an unassisted swim and I hope their reputation is not slammed with no proof

    Sometimes it takes showmanship to get the attention of people. Many people including myself have come to look into the sport due to her showmanship. Hopefully many will stay and not get turned off by the negativity.
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    edited September 2013
    @Pochi, you're coming to this a little late but it looks like you read some of this thread so I'll be gentle: DN & Co proved in the past that they'd withhold the truth until it accidentally got out. During attempt 4 she got on the boat for multiple hours yet called it non-stop.

    Every sport requires proof for records, extraordinary feats, and the like. Us asking questions is a result of her past actions and her uncomprehending (at least to me and probably others) decision to have this swim observed by a bunch of nobodies.

    And @Niek, I'd add her web guy. Steve? Chris. He has answered our questions openly and honestly.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • Mike_GemelliMike_Gemelli Rutherford, NJMember
    edited September 2013
    Pochi wrote:
    Sometimes it takes showmanship to get the attention of people. Many people including myself have come to look into the sport due to her showmanship. Hopefully many will stay and not get turned off by the negativity.
    In my humble opinion, this what it all boils down to, showmanship. The difference between Diana and any one of the many amazing marathon swimmers I've been lucky enough to meet hinges on this term and its antithesis.

    Showmanship versus Integrity

    @Pochi
    Hopefully the kind of people who value bluster and rule bending WILL get turned off by what you refer to as "negativity". Those who stay because they value a community of thoughtful, respectful and well educated swimmers will be welcomed and cheered on to achieve their personal swimming goals.

  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited September 2013
    I appreciated this guest blog by Dan Abel in H2Open Magazine:

    http://www.h2openmagazine.com/blogs/congratulations-order-diana-nyad-regardless-finer-details/

    Complimentary of Diana, but at the same time, understanding of this community's perspective.
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    edited September 2013
    ...assistance in direct form does reduce workload.


    My favorite line in the whole article.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • Today is apparently THE DAY. If anyone actually sees Ms. Nyad's film today or in the near future, please post your "impressions." I have a feeling that you may want to keep a pencil and paper handy while viewing...

    -LBJ

    “Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde

  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member
    What, they could get a movie out quicker than a scan of the log & notes?

    loneswimmer.com

  • lakespraylakespray Senior Member
    From the Guiness World record web site.
    How do I attempt a world record?

    At Guinness World Records we want everyone, anywhere in the world to be able to make their record-breaking dreams a reality.

    So if DN gets a Guiness World record out this, I guess my response is a shrug shouldered "so"

    And in other news
    Big Freedia and Friends Set Twerking Guinness World Record http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/09/25/big-freedia-and-friends-set-twerking-guinness-world-record/

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    Today is apparently THE DAY. If anyone actually sees Ms. Nyad's film today or in the near future, please post your "impressions." I have a feeling that you may want to keep a pencil and paper handy while viewing...

    -LBJ

    20% off if you rent it or buy it online today.

    Let us know how the movie is, @Leonard_Jansen. ;)

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • IronMike wrote:
    Let us know how the movie is, @Leonard_Jansen. ;)

    "You'll laugh! You'll cry! You'll kiss sixteen bucks goodbye!"

    -LBJ

    “Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde

  • malinakamalinaka Seattle, WACharter Member
    I believe I made my feelings clear: I'd have gladly accepted a birthday gift of airfare, hotel arrangements, and tickets to see today's SXSW premier. Or, are you all going to surprise me with it at the beach tonight?? I can't wait!

    I don't wear a wetsuit; it gives the ocean a sporting chance.

  • paulmpaulm Senior Member
    To me knowledge the tracker is only saved on Spot's web site (unless its been deleted :) ) for 30 days- Though I believe you can permanently save it if required. As the 30 day deadline since the DN swim is now getting very close - does anyone know if a copy of the spot tracker has been made available ??? (I thought Chris the web guy who was very helpful had said they had 2 on the boats-though the tracking from the spots was not made public ) Also does anyone know if ANY of the original handwritten observer notes been made available ???
  • paulmpaulm Senior Member
    edited September 2013
    My Teammates who formed a wall for me there, enforcing the sport's rules that the swimmer is not touched until completely beyond the sea... ......................

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diana-nyad/cuba-3-weeks-later_b_3993461.html

    So only when the public sees the athlete is when the non touch rule become important ???
  • It just shows that she knew what the rules were and chose to ignore them.
  • rlmrlm Senior Member
    Wow, loneswimmer is immediately in Sarah Thomas' company with Part 1 of the DN controversy. This is a must read for anyone who is following the Forum thread. Thanks.
  • evmo wrote:

    Thanks for sharing Evan.

    Excellent read Donal / @loneswimmmer, very well written. I as well as many other "non marathon" swimmers will understand where you are coming from, and which is probably representative of many others on this forum too - so thank you. You've clearly done your homework, excellent info, and you're very prolific on the subject of Diana Nyad , no doubt. Although I encourage you to turn on comments - you can still censor and display only respectful comments as you wish.

    Have you and any others taken the time to watch/review DN's The Other Shore yet? It's an excellent story, life story really, quite often tragic - and gave me much respect and insight into Diana's psyche, what motivates Her and has motivated Her since youth. I am curious of what your thoughts are as well as other members on the forum regarding Diana's film.

    Stuart
  • That's too bad @Niek. I think many of your questions you seek will be answered. Answers don't always come to you because you demand them. And with all due respect, given many of your comments and responses on this thread - will probably not render any more answers or info from the crew - Capt Duke, Angel or B9Chris.

    Stuart
  • rlmrlm Senior Member
    Hello Stuart! This comment/question is intended politely and with sincere interest: "Any claimed achievement without guiding rules is meaningless. It is akin to setting the world's record on one leg, but without rules which specify only using one leg, and instead using two legs." Do you think this is a fair description by Loneswimmer of what Diana Nyad has done? If not, why not? Should she just get a "mulligan" on this? " RLM
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    I think many of your questions you seek will be answered.
    I wouldn't expect so. Diana has instructed her team not to "feed the trolls" - according to a member of the team.

    There you have it, marathon swimmers of the world. Diana Nyad thinks you are trolls.
  • Ms. Nyad -

    Even though I am not Christian, just a kindly thought for you: Please see Proverbs 22:1 in the bible (NIV version) where it says:

    "A good name is more desirable than great riches; to be esteemed is better than silver or gold."

    You can also find similar in the Torah in the book of Ecclesiastes.(sp?)

    - LBJ, The Troll

    “Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde

  • edited September 2013
    evmo wrote:
    I think many of your questions you seek will be answered.
    I wouldn't expect so. Diana has instructed her team not to "feed the trolls" - according to a member of the team.
    Hi Evan. That statement was in the context of watching the documentary. Did you watch the film, or choosing not to? I understand if you choose to pass on the film.
    rlm wrote:
    Hello Stuart! This comment/question is intended politely and with sincere interest: "Any claimed achievement without guiding rules is meaningless. It is akin to setting the world's record on one leg, but without rules which specify only using one leg, and instead using two legs." Do you think this is a fair description by Loneswimmer of what Diana Nyad has done? If not, why not? Should she just get a "mulligan" on this?
    Hi rlm. Thanks for the response, and very good question. Although I think the first part of Donal's statement is correct, and agree. But when something is new and mostly unknown and uncharted, I don't think rules can be easily established, primarily for safety, especially given the scale and dangers associated with the Florida Straight swim. Using the analogy of one leg verses two or the "mulligan" is an oversimplification. The complexities, logistics, scale - make this different than any other swim in the world. Rules are created as much for a safety as it is for a level playing field for all competitors. I believe it will take it a few, possibly several swims across the Florida Straight to establish this framework to minimize risk to swimmer and create a level playing field. But that will need willing swimmers, dedicated crew and the funding to support them. I see Chloe attempting this swim again and hope this is in the near future.

    Stuart
  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member
    edited September 2013
    @Leonard, Lance Armstrong's favourite insult for the people questioning him, was "trolls". In such a context, I'll take it as a mark of distinction.

    @StuartMcDougal, interesting that a non marathon swimmer would feel like saying new rules are difficult to establish in a forum dedicated to difficult and dangerous swimming by actual marathon swimmers, and that you apparently understand better than us.

    Maybe before you make such a claim, you might want to check about the dangers many other swimmers here have encountered and the dangers & losses encountered. Given we have lost friends in waters you don't obviously deem sufficiently dangerous enough. Step very carefully though mind you, I'm notoriously trigger-happy when it comes to people dismissing the loss of marathon swimming friends, and will be even more so when it comes to self-serving bullshit to prop up this fantasy.

    Curious also that DN ignored the offer to have input into the specific rules. Convenient even, in later not having to adhere to any.

    loneswimmer.com

  • JBirrrdJBirrrd MarylandSenior Member
    ^^^ MSF troll & proud of it.
  • @loneswimmer, sorry - I was not trying to minimize the dangers of other swims, or somehow assume I know more than anyone here. You can "pull the trigger" and give me the proverbial boot from the forum, or just ask me to leave - that's fine. I was only trying to answer a question from LBJ honestly and carefully. It's the scale of Florida Straight, length of exposure, and paralyzing affects of Portuguese Man-o-war common in these waters that I was referring to. If these jellies were't an issue, I suspect we'd be celebrating Chole's successful crossing, and not debating Diana's. I followed Susan Taylor's English Channel swim closely only because I knew one of her coaches on board escort boat. Her death tragic, so young - and underscores the inherit risks in marathon swimming.

    I think mistakes were made, really a missed opportunity by both this forum and Team Nyad. Steve Munatones being distant - not sure why. This forum looking for reasons to dismiss rather than acknowledge DN's swim, and DN being resistant to publish her plans or guidelines ahead of time - a hostile environment followed, and it seems years in the making. Both sides can feel as right as rain, but unfortunately that leaves the rest of us to determine who's right or wrong.

    Stuart
  • ChickenOSeaChickenOSea Charter Member
    I don't believe this forum was looking for reasons to dismiss the swim, but were looking for reasons to NOT dismiss it.
  • vvisevvise Member
    edited September 2013
    I think many of your questions you seek will be answered.
    I just viewed a free stream of the movie. And no, none of the questions asked here are answered by the film. In fact, only the end of the swim is shown, very briefly and half screen, next to the rolling credits.
    Curious also that DN ignored the offer to have input into the specific rules. Convenient even, in later not having to adhere to any.
    Yes! PRIOR to their attempts to swim from Cuba to Florida, Walter Poenisch,
    Susan Maroney, Penny Palfrey and Chloe McCardle all disclosed the rules for their swims.
    Niek wrote:
    For that we still need the Florida Strait Rules.
    Without those rules there's no framework we can work with.

    So how much time is needed to finish writing those at the moment non existent rules?
    And if they do exist at the moment, where's a copy for this forum to review?
    In an article published on a BBC news page dated September 11, 2013, Diana Nyad says her "Florida Straits Rules" would include no flippers, no shark cage, no getting out of the water, never holding on to the boat, never holding on to the kayak, never being supported by another human being or being lifted up or helped with buoyancy.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24052923
    In documenting her previous attempts, the film shows Diana (during the various swims) getting out of the water, holding on to the boat, holding on to a kayak, being supported by another human being, being lifted up and helped with buoyancy, before the decision was made to end each of the respective attempts.
    That is not to say that any of those activities occurred during the most recent swim.
    But making the details of the swim public, releasing documentation, (as was said would be done) - and answering questions not resolved by the documentation, would seem to be the most effective and efficient way to move on.

    (I tend to favor that approach over name calling...although adopting it as a mark of distinction, given the circumstances, may be the way to go!)
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    I think mistakes were made, really a missed opportunity by both this forum and Team Nyad.
    "Mistakes were made" - I love it. Very Rumsfeldian.

    About the "missed opportunities," though. Let's do a quick thought experiment. Imagine for a moment that this Forum... didn't exist. Now play out, in your mind, the weeks following Diana's swim. Do you think we, the forum-less marathon swimming community, would know more about the swim, or less? Or the same? And why?
    Steve Munatones being distant - not sure why.
    Not sure why... it's even relevant.
  • Any Florida Strait Rules will not be worth the paper that they'll never be printed on. A swim is either assisted or non-assisted. An assisted swim across the Strait was previously accomplished. Is this a record because it is the "first without a swim cage"? Give me a break. While an amazing accomplishment and test of will, it is an assisted swim and not a record.
  • jvjjvj Charlotte, NCMember
    edited October 2013
    I believe it will take it a few, possibly several swims across the Florida Straight to establish this framework to minimize risk to swimmer and create a level playing field. But that will need willing swimmers, dedicated crew and the funding to support them.

    That sounds great in theory but wouldn't it be a lot better if the "willing swimmer" was also willing to disclose the rules they were attempting and also be as transparent as possible with qualified observer logs (raw data, not summarized after the fact)? Seems to me establishing a meaningful "framework" would be much easier with more information, not less.

  • ChickenOSeaChickenOSea Charter Member
    My opinion is neither wanted nor respected on this forum, but as a new swimmer it's my understanding that if there's a danger to the swimmer (during any swim) deemed serious enough, the swim is terminated. New rules aren't made up on the spot, and if they are, it negates the legitimacy of the swim. This isn't complicated. Eg, If a swimmer gets dangerously cold on any swim they are removed from the water. They are free to try again another time.
    I'm not sure I've expressed this correctly but there it is.
  • rosemarymintrosemarymint Charleston, SCCharter Member
    edited October 2013
    Niek wrote:
    And much more interesting reading at columbus.com: Lost At Sea
    I just want to highlight the link to story again for those that may have accidentally scanned over it. This is the narrative story of Walter Poenisch's swim. This is an amazing and compelling read.
  • This just gets more and more fascinating!!
    @loneswimmer may be getting tired of it... ( please don't stop the blog!) but I am feeling that there is waay more here, ( esp psychologically speaking) the further we go into this.
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited October 2013
    Niek wrote:
    And much more interesting reading at columbus.com: Lost At Sea
    I just want to highlight the link to story again for those that may have accidentally scanned over it. This is the narrative story of Walter Poenisch's swim. This is an amazing and compelling read.
    This article that @Niek found is incredible. Absolutely essential reading.

    http://614columbus.com/article/5998/1380303188/

    “Miss Nyad’s manager, Chuck Jones, said they are keeping secret exactly how the swim is to be made. Obviously, we don’t want a lot of other swimmers trailing along. We don’t want the interference.”

    Steve Sonsky from the Miami Herald informed them that, during an interview, Nyad herself had said horrible things about Walter, accusing him of hanging on the shark cage and using flotation, a wet suit and fins during his previous swims. Walter had always used fins. He made no secret of that. The rest was total fabrication.

    Nyad mostly claimed that she couldn’t remember any of the accusatory statements about Poenisch that she had made.
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member
    This deserves its own "Discussion" in honor of Walter:

    Walter Poenisch: Lost At Sea. The First Person to Swim from Cuba To Florida!

    http://614columbus.com/article/5998/1380303188/

    :-)
  • danslosdanslos Los Angeles, CAMem​ber
    edited October 2013
    Don't hold your breath, Niek. According to a press release that Harpo Studios provided SWIMSWAM, OPRAH AND DIANA NYAD: THE POWER OF THE HUMAN SPIRIT airs Sunday, October 6 (with part two airing on October 13th), in which...

    "Oprah interviews Diana Nyad who inspired the world when she became the first person to swim from Cuba to Florida without a shark cage, at age 64, in just under 53 hours."

    Looks like DN's still pretending that no one is asking questions.

    -Daniel
  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member
    @Danlos, Oprah, who let Lance Armstrong off the hook and even allowed him to make fun of the women he'd bullied? That Oprah?

    loneswimmer.com

  • Ah, come on!! Oprah must have a website... Can we direct our questions to that site? if we can get Reuters, NYT, etc etc to respond..surely Oprah can as well? No one said we weren't persistent. Isn't that a hallmark of marathon ows?
  • SharkoSharko Tomales BayGuest
    I think Oprah or her staff (harpo productions as I recall) should be directed to this string...give a pretty good idea of the issues

    "I never met a shark I didn't like"

  • sylmarinosylmarino San FranciscoMember
    I wouldn't direct them to this thread as they would never go through it. Instead, they work on a 1-page fact sheet. A list of bullet points and links to resources (such as http://614columbus.com/article/5998/1380303188/ and the original Miami Herald clip).

    Fact is, if they are already promoting this in 2-parts, they already have this done in the editing room so you aren't going to get any changes from her feel-good. The only thing to really do is go to http://www.oprah.com/own-super-soul-sunday/First-Look-Oprah-and-Swimming-Champion-Diana-Nyad-Video and COMMENT with very specific points as to what the issues are.

This discussion has been closed.