Jammers vs. Briefs
evmo
SydneyAdmin
This discussion was created from comments split from: Planned Lake Pontchartrain Swim.
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Somewhat of an aside, and possibly worth it's own thread:
I really don't understand why jammers get short shrift in so many sets of rules. I know some organizers don't want to have to deal with legal versus illegal materials etcetera so briefs are kind of the "easy" option, but honestly at the speed most marathon swimmers go I'd be surprised if the difference was even measurable between a marathon swimmer equipped with a (increasingly rare since they are not made anymore) illegal jammer and a marathon swimmer in briefs*
I exclusively wear polyester jammers, not exactly known for their drag reducing properties. While switching to even a lycra (let alone a FINA legal tech) jammer would reduce my drag it is so far down the list of things that are slowing me down that it is not even worth worrying about...
* People who are trying to break a world record can afford to have someone certify that their suit is legal, and it would certainly be possible to do a post swim check on the winners suits in a major race if anyone actually cares.
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
Counterintuitivly, products that reduce drag tend to help slower athletes more, at least in the world of cycling. There is more time for the products to work, so there is a bit more effort. For purposes of competition, though, I agree with you, the margins aren't tight enough to really worry about something like a tech suit.
Totally understand that jammers are not for everyone (and I dislike doing breast stroke in them), but it just kind of riles me up a bit when I see rules written to specifically exclude them
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
Well those are two pretty big ones :-)
I will confess to not having done a full survey of all the rules organizations and thus may be guilty of overstating the problem* somewhat.
However the fact that those two prominent organizations exclude jammers has a knock on effect when other organizations or individuals choose to take inspiration from their rule sets (e.g. in this case @timsroot drawing from NYC Swim).
Not the most pressing issue in marathon swimming by a fair margin I'll grant you, but my only personal pet peeve.
*As a jammer swimmer I see it as a problem, those gentlemen in budgie smugglers may see it as a vindication of their fashion choices :-)
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
C3 - Cape Circumnavigation Challenge. Had to buy a pair of square legs (NO way am I wearing Budgie smugglers) for the 14 Sept race. Although a vindictive and perverse side of me seriously thought about showing up in a rat thong or mankini.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
Hmm the C3 Website only says " Swim suits for all participants, regardless of gender, are pursuant to "English Channel" Rules and must be of the traditional style "lycra" suits."
Given CS&PF approve jammers, I'd think they'd be ok in the C3 (I was planning on wearing mine) but will check with @jcmalick in any case
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
It was in the rules that got emailed out recently. I emailed Jason and he said that jammers were not kosher, but square legs were.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
@evmo, this is basically proves my point, @jcmalick is templating from NYC Swim (I would like to emphasize I do not begrudge that fact, swim organizers have more than enough other tasks on their hands), so the fact that NYC Swim and CSA are unfriendly to jammers does indeed have a ripple effect.
I'm starting to think that I need to start a campaign, complete with ribbons that marathon swimmers can wear to show their support for jammers - the tricky part would be finding a colour that hasn't already been taken... maybe puce?
Apologies to @timsroot this discussion is really not about his swim (maybe @evmo could split it off?)
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
I believe NYC Swim's policy is mostly pragmatic rather than "moralistic" (for lack of a better term). They don't want to get into gray-area battles on individual swimsuits, and this is less likely to happen with briefs. They run events with many hundreds of participants, so this is understandable.
In the case of CSA, well.... they don't think CS&PF swimmers actually swam the Channel, so there ya go.
Additionally, there are federation rules that I do not agree with (Neoprene caps are one example with the FISF) as historical evidence does not always prove the use of them. From a traditionalist's stand point, I think everyone should be able to wear full cotton suits like Webb and Durborrow's days but I suppose that would be quite a bit of drag (I think it would be fun to have a swim such as that like an Old Timer's Swim!). I don't like "crotch level" suits myself as I surely don't look like a model and would look much better in jammers, but it is just something that I have adopted to eliminate ambiguity (something that will always be ever present in any sport). Definitely a topic to be weighed and interested to see everyone else's take!
NYC Swim's rules are admirably harsh, but I'd just point out that CSA allows, by the absence of a rule forbidding it, drafting off the boat wake (and also littering). NYC Swim wins on purism (IMO).
Looks like the Viking Princess (CSA) and a pair of jammers to me.
Perhaps Reg didn’t read the rules?
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
I'm a boxers kind of guy, just saying. I actually have a lovely pair of board shorts I want to break out for the next SERC swim I do
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
http://img2.imagesbn.com/p/2940011965029_p0_v1_s260x420.JPG
loneswimmer.com
Any women that wish to objectify me are welcome to do so, although it would make people wonder about your sanity and/or eyesight.
As to "Roughing It In Rubber", let's keep this clean - it's a family-oriented forum.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
puce? Don't be ridiculous, it has to be ecru or mauve.
I tried to convince myself, but, orange flavour electrolyte, mixed with hot chocolate,
tastes nothing like Terry's Chocolate Orange ....
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
I know a lot of organizations push tge "traditional" argument. I am afraid of that argument because if you go far enough back in tradition, you end up wearing wool (don't want to go back to that) or even further and you have au natural. My personal preference if it were not for the health issues of the sun and the risk of being arrested would be the au natural :-)
In the very first OW race I ever swam (the 2 miler in Reston, VA), some guy was wearing a women's tech suit claiming that it was unfair that women got greater coverage than men did. He looked like a misshaped sausage and the RD let him swim in it as well - most likely for the amusement factor. Although I was used to dealing with some of the loons in racewalking, it really made me wonder if I wanted to be a swimmer.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
There was some discussion of this in this thread last year.
I would like to say as a pasty white boy who grew up in the country with one of the highest incidences of skin cancer (per capita) in the world, I am in total agreement with you, I'd love it if there were neck to knee suits available with closed backs available for sun protection (FINA approved neck to knee suits for OW use for some reason, but AFAICT they are all still open back because of the FINA limitations on fasteners/zippers).
That all said, if you read @pennypalfrey 's comments in that thread it appears that there are chafing issues with full body suits, and I know that a friend ended up with horrible chafing when he used a rash vest in the Rottnest swim. It is my guess that unless those issues were resolved that marathon swimmers would continue to go the slathered in zinc oxide route.
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
Not quite true. There's nothing in the FINA rules that prevents a closed back, only zippers (oddly, something that NYC Swim allows). Arena produces this suit:
http://www.arenainternational.com/racing/man/powerskin-r-evo-open-water-full-body-long-leg-closed_en_0_1_572.html
I know Oussama Mellouli wore it for at least his 5k victory.
For what it's worth, if I was allowed to race/swim in pants, I would. (Similar to this: http://www.arenainternational.com/racing/man/powerskin-r-evo-open-water-pant_en_0_1_571.html). I have an old pair of Fastskin pants that I swam my first 10k in, and wear in training from time to time, because I find them quite comfortable. I just don't like the way Jammers press on my IT band and other areas around my knees. But, if you are more comfortable in jammers, I really don't care enough to stop you from wearing them.
It's still open back - though it admittedly has lower back coverage which is more than most one piece suits. The open part though is precisely where I tend to burn the most (i.e. shoulders and upper back) since that is the part most out of the water.
Because FINA does not allow fasteners/zippers you have to have a hole in any suit big enough to insert your body through. From a sun protection perspective it would theoretically be possible to put the hole on the front but it would look pretty funky and I suspect that whatever advantage these suits give you (I assume they must have some advantage or people would just wear jammers or briefs) might be compromised by such an arrangement.
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
I was thinking about the lower back, which is the marketing/model distinction for suit makers. I noticed some women had open backs in the pool, and others had closed backs. Surprised me that, in a world championship race, you would choose to expose more (slower) skin.
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
http://dailynews.openwaterswimming.com/2014/03/the-swimming-evolution-from-briefs-to.html?m=1
Hmmmm . . . isn't buoyancy the beef with wetsuits?
Maybe NYC Swim "suit rule" is on the right path for traditional types but not necessarily adolescent boys. Actually, being the father of an adolescent boy - the square colorful drag suit is king.
You missed the important part of that quote "We must realize that rules have changed since their introduction," - jammers can no longer be made with buoyant materials and their drag reducing abilities are also less than in the tech suit era.
The article is a bit disingenuous in that it conflates jammers with the full body tech suits, and a modern FINA approved (i.e. porous and non buoyant) jammer is not anywhere in that league. Given that men's jammers offer a similar amount of coverage to a women's one piece I hardly see them as offering up a crazy unfair advantage.
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
I am by no means a fan of the tech suit era, but conversely I don't think that the previous use of the now banned materials should prejudice people against jammers as a style of swimsuit in marathon swimming.
It's a bit of a crusade for me as any search through these forums is likely to reveal
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
Is a one piece warmer than a bikini? *
Approved materials are porous so you don't get the wetsuit effect of a trapped insulating layer of water. Any benefits of a jammer vs being naked are likely to negligible to the best of my knowledge.
* comparison is not quite exact since the portions of the body covered are different and I would suspect that covering the core would be more beneficial than the thighs if any warming benefit was to be had, but I think you get the point.
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
Compression? certainly; warmth? nope.
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
http://www.jammerreviews.com/some-powerskin-carbon-pro-suits-banned/
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
@sharkbaitza
loneswimmer.com
@loneswimmer, this is my source for £5 briefs:
Swim Outlet briefs
and £1.5 swedish goggles:
Swim Outlet Swedish Goggles
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde