Training non-freestyle strokes

edited June 2022 in General Discussion
This discussion was created from comments split from: London Swim Squads.
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  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    Hey everyone,

    I have moved to NW London and looking for a swim squad. I need it to be in a Swim England affiliated club for racing purpose and I swim strictly freestyle only.

    Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks all.

  • CazzwimCazzwim UK.New Member

    @miklcct said:
    Hey everyone,

    I have moved to NW London and looking for a swim squad. I need it to be in a Swim England affiliated club for racing purpose and I swim strictly freestyle only.

    Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks all.

    @miklcct This would be your best starting point.

    https://www.swimming.org/masters/getting-into-masters-swimming/#

  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber
    edited June 2022

    @swimfreeordie said:
    @jmc I suggest that you look into swimming with Otter SC (many London workout venues, mostly evening as far as I know) for traditional swim squad training. For outdoor swimming/cold water training, the Serpentine has been mentioned, but you could also look into Brockwell Lido and Tooting Bec Lido and Royal London Docks which are open at times of day when the Serpentine club is not operating. You are probably already aware of the groups who train in Dover during the summer? Dover Channel Training, King's Swimmers and so on?

    I have looked into a few clubs but they all require 2 or 3 strokes, rather than freestyle only. I couldn't follow the training in a previous club when they do anything other than freestyle, so I'm looking for a place with strictly freestyle training catered for open water swimmers and long distance endurance events.

    For cold water swimming, are there any squads in Tooting Bec / Brockwell / Parliament Hill Fields which trains competitive ice swimmers? If so I'll be interested to join next winter.

    I'm aware of the group in Dover but I have no intention to train there this year as, apart from a relay, I only do lake and river races this year and I'm training exclusively for speed and endurance. If I want to train for the Channel I'll probably go there on the weeks when I'm not racing, but I doubt if I'll want to suffer everything again.

    Do you know if there are any groups training regularly in Brighton as well? It's cheaper and more convenient for me to go to Brighton compared to Dover as trains run 24 hours.

    P.S. I have signed up for a regional open water swimming championship this year. This race will be my main focus in my future swimming career, with the aim of getting improvement every year until I qualify for the nationals. I hope I can join a good club which specifically trains swimmers to perform will in open water races.

  • abbygirlroseabbygirlrose Los Angeles and Palo Alto, CASenior Member

    @miklcct said:

    I have looked into a few clubs but they all require 2 or 3 strokes, rather than freestyle only.

    Is it really true that its "required"? In the US there are many many masters swimmers who swim on teams that have workouts that have more that one stroke but choose to swim the whole workout freestyle? Would something like that work for you?

    LakeBagger
  • KatieBunKatieBun CornwallSenior Member
    edited June 2022

    @miklcct said:

    I have looked into a few clubs but they all require 2 or 3 strokes, rather than freestyle only. I couldn't follow the training in a previous club when they do anything other than freestyle, so I'm looking for a place with strictly freestyle training catered for open water swimmers and long distance endurance events.

    I've lost count of the number of times people have explained to you the benefits of doing other strokes in training, but you just don't listen.

    YorkshireTomjendutIronMike
  • CazzwimCazzwim UK.New Member

    @miklcct as @KatieBun says there are advantages to be gained from mixing up your strokes. I know it can feel frustrating when a stroke is un natural or a bit slow to you, but I have a saying which is 'be prepared to suck at something new'. In sport and life in general you need to push beyond your comfort zone if you wish to succeed. Once you're comfortable with being uncomfortable you will start to reep the benefits. Best of luck with your endeavours.

    KatieBun
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @KatieBun said:

    @miklcct said:

    I have looked into a few clubs but they all require 2 or 3 strokes, rather than freestyle only. I couldn't follow the training in a previous club when they do anything other than freestyle, so I'm looking for a place with strictly freestyle training catered for open water swimmers and long distance endurance events.

    I've lost count of the number of times people have explained to you the benefits of doing other strokes in training, but you just don't listen.

    I tried but I couldn't do that, and I pissed off the squad whenever there was such training because I just couldn't follow it.

  • @miklcct at the risk of stating the obvious, have you considered joining a triathlon club? Their sessions will be almost exclusively freestyle and based around speed and endurance for 1500m races, which according to your other posts is exactly what you're focussing on?

  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @YorkshireTom said:
    @miklcct at the risk of stating the obvious, have you considered joining a triathlon club? Their sessions will be almost exclusively freestyle and based around speed and endurance for 1500m races, which according to your other posts is exactly what you're focussing on?

    Yes. I have been a member of a triathlon club for a few years already and I train with the club well.

    The problem is that how can I get my Swim England membership to enable me to race? I don't see the triathlon clubs being Swim England affiliated (mine is British Triathlon / British Athletics affiliated but not Swim England).

  • @miklcct said:

    Yes. I have been a member of a triathlon club for a few years already and I train with the club well.

    The problem is that how can I get my Swim England membership to enable me to race? I don't see the triathlon clubs being Swim England affiliated (mine is British Triathlon / British Athletics affiliated but not Swim England).

    If you read the conditions of entry for the regional events, you can just apply directly to Swim England for temporary membership, without being a Cat 2 member of an affiliated club. That would seem to solve all your issues

  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @YorkshireTom said:
    @miklcct said:

    Yes. I have been a member of a triathlon club for a few years already and I train with the club well.

    The problem is that how can I get my Swim England membership to enable me to race? I don't see the triathlon clubs being Swim England affiliated (mine is British Triathlon / British Athletics affiliated but not Swim England).

    If you read the conditions of entry for the regional events, you can just apply directly to Swim England for temporary membership, without being a Cat 2 member of an affiliated club. That would seem to solve all your issues

    I'm doing that for the upcoming race next month. However, in the long term, I will still need a club when I become good enough to qualify for the nationals as they are region-based by the affiliated club.

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    @miklcct, you should just quit. Much easier than learning breast-stroke and backstroke. May I suggest you try and make the UK orienteering squad?

    abbygirlroseKatieBunwendyv34

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • abeabe australiaMember

    Michael - are you wanting to be an elite swimmer but have not learnt backstroke or breastroke yet, think you will find that is the part of every swimmers journey to the top is that all 4 strokes are trained.
    IronMike - is it easy to make National orienteering squads, never done it but maybe at 49 I can start and make it to elite level by 50

    KatieBun
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @IronMike said:
    @miklcct, you should just quit. Much easier than learning breast-stroke and backstroke. May I suggest you try and make the UK orienteering squad?

    This is my target as soon as I qualify for citizenship. I'm already at the level of some British trail orienteering national team members.

    However, my swimming plan is totally independent of my orienteering plan. They are completely different pursuits.

    I have completely no interest to swim anything which isn't the most efficient style (which means front crawl). I just want to swim fast.

    @abe said:
    Michael - are you wanting to be an elite swimmer but have not learnt backstroke or breastroke yet, think you will find that is the part of every swimmers journey to the top is that all 4 strokes are trained.

    I don't want to go though that journey. I want to go through the typical triathlete's journey of training all of swim, bike and run. However, racing triathlons is currently not my goal as I swim because I want to become a competitive open water swimmer, I bike to help my commute, and I run to improve my orienteering. If good triathletes only swim freestyle I can't see why I should do anything other than it.

    Therefore my best bet is to get a both British Triathlon / Swim England-affiliated triathlon club and train there, such that I can race both open water swimming races and triathlons and seek improvements in both sports. Any suggestions in North London? Thanks.

  • abbygirlroseabbygirlrose Los Angeles and Palo Alto, CASenior Member

    @miklcct What about when you are feeding on a long swim at don't know how to do breaststroke? What about when you are hours into a long swim and it would be really nice to do a few backstrokes to stretch out? What will you do then?

    KatieBunYorkshireTomcurly
  • bruckbruck San FranciscoMember
    edited June 2022

    @miklcct said:

    @KatieBun said: I've lost count of the number of times people have explained to you the benefits of doing other strokes in training, but you just don't listen.

    I tried but I couldn't do that, and I pissed off the squad whenever there was such training because I just couldn't follow it.

    Have you considered ... learning to follow the squad sessions? Surely this would be a far more realistic, achievable goal, than your stated aims of miraculously transforming yourself into an elite swimmer in your late 20s. Try respectfully approaching the coach after a session and asking him/her to help you understand the workouts and terminology. Move down a lane if you can't keep up.

    Also, if you "pissed off the squad," try learning some pool/training etiquette. You may not fully understand the reasons you pissed them off - similar to how you don't seem to understand the reasons you frustrate people on internet forums around the world.

    CazzwimKatieBunabbygirlroseYorkshireTomIronMike
  • abeabe australiaMember

    Michael do you make comments to piss people of as in your squad - you are new to swimming and as most triathletes will do other strokes as in a lot love to add a quality set of butterfly.
    To say you are not interested shows absolutely no idea of what the sport is about at elite level - good luck in trying to find training squads or partners that will engage and encourage your goals

    IronMike
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @bruck said:

    @miklcct said:

    @KatieBun said: I've lost count of the number of times people have explained to you the benefits of doing other strokes in training, but you just don't listen.

    I tried but I couldn't do that, and I pissed off the squad whenever there was such training because I just couldn't follow it.

    Have you considered ... learning to follow the squad sessions? Surely this would be a far more realistic, achievable goal, than your stated aims of miraculously transforming yourself into an elite swimmer in your late 20s. Try respectfully approaching the coach after a session and asking him/her to help you understand the workouts and terminology. Move down a lane if you can't keep up.

    Also, if you "pissed off the squad," try learning some pool/training etiquette. You may not fully understand the reasons you pissed them off - similar to how you don't seem to understand the reasons you frustrate people on internet forums around the world.

    @abe said:
    Michael do you make comments to piss people of as in your squad - you are new to swimming and as most triathletes will do other strokes as in a lot love to add a quality set of butterfly.
    To say you are not interested shows absolutely no idea of what the sport is about at elite level - good luck in trying to find training squads or partners that will engage and encourage your goals

    I started my swim training in triathlon club squads and I had completely no problems there. I had some triathletes as my good training partners. These squads did nothing related to alternate strokes, only freestyle, which is all long distance swimmers and triathletes do.

    I can't even get a length of race-legal backstroke / butterfly done properly. I struggled to follow the thing even in the slowest lane of the swim squad when the set consisted of alternative strokes, but whenever freestyle was given I hit the person in front of me a lot.

  • KatieBunKatieBun CornwallSenior Member
    edited June 2022

    @miklcct nobody should hit the person in front of them a lot in a squad session. You leave a bigger gap or ask to go in front on freestyle. It's good lane etiquette.
    If you can't do a couple of other strokes legally, work on them, Michael! That's what coaches are for and learning other strokes is a huge positive, especially fly kick for your core and backstroke for recovery. Don't whine about it. Either learn and improve or stick to triathlon clubs.

    YorkshireTom
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    @miklcct said:
    These squads did nothing related to alternate strokes, only freestyle, which is all long distance swimmers and triathletes do.

    Wrong.

    KatieBunruthevmoChickenOSea
  • abbygirlroseabbygirlrose Los Angeles and Palo Alto, CASenior Member

    @miklcct it really feels like you are trying to skip important steps. Even if you never use them in a race (which I doubt), it is important to learn other strokes for training versatility and honestly injury prevention. Let's say you have the goal to become a physics professor, you would still need to take math classes in order to learn how to think about physics even if you don't use basic math in your physics publications. You may never be as good at other strokes as you are at freestyle, but it is impossible to be "an elite" swimmer without proficiency at them.

    KatieBunIronMike
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @curly said:

    @miklcct said:
    These squads did nothing related to alternate strokes, only freestyle, which is all long distance swimmers and triathletes do.

    Wrong.

    It's my experience in triathlon clubs in the past. There wasn't anything involving alternative strokes and I could get on the training well.

    @abbygirlrose said:
    @miklcct it really feels like you are trying to skip important steps. Even if you never use them in a race (which I doubt), it is important to learn other strokes for training versatility and honestly injury prevention. Let's say you have the goal to become a physics professor, you would still need to take math classes in order to learn how to think about physics even if you don't use basic math in your physics publications. You may never be as good at other strokes as you are at freestyle, but it is impossible to be "an elite" swimmer without proficiency at them.

    Don't bike and run provide such effect? If not, why do triathletes only do freestyle?

  • abbygirlroseabbygirlrose Los Angeles and Palo Alto, CASenior Member

    Triathletes only race freestyle. My experience training with triathletes tells me they do not only do freestyle. I think I am done arguing with you about this, though. Good luck with your goals.

    IronMike
  • Cfh138Cfh138 Member

    @miklcct
    Because even the best triathlon swimmers are slow compared to elite swimmers.

    One of the best 1500m time by a triathlete: 17:08 by Henri Schoeman in 2018. (Yes open water but with wetsuit)
    This time would be good enough to be the swimming world record in 1960, which was 17:11. (Long course pool, no wetsuit)

    Current world record is: 14:31

    And a triathlete simply doesn’t have enough time to become good at ask strokes due to time management of all the disciplines.

    KatieBunIronMike
  • KatieBunKatieBun CornwallSenior Member
    edited June 2022

    I taught an elite GB triathlete, (he was in my daughter's class at school), and also occasionally coached his squad at my previous swimming club. He trained on four strokes and boy did it show when he raced. There is no easy way to be an elite swimmer, Michael....and it certainly can't be done on training with a triathlon squad. You really need to be realistic in your ambitions, especially if you refuse to listen to anybody's advice unless it fits what you've already decided.

    abbygirlrose
  • JSwimJSwim western Maryland, USSenior Member

    Elite swimmers have an extraordinary feel for the water. It makes their strokes uber efficient in real world conditions. Even in a pool there are slight variations in how the water is moving and the elites compensate for that without thinking. It’s part of who they are, like birds flying in the wind or dolphins cruising the waves.

    Their general stroke techniques are also amazingly efficient, even if can sometimes look like something is not technically perfect. May not be textbook, but it’s what is fastest for them. (I wouldn’t say that’s true for mere mortal, none elite swimmers. )

    How do they get that crazy sensitive feel for the water? Some may be blessed with natural athletic talent. That’s extremely rare. The other 99.99% spend 10,000 hours in the water. (The natural athletes do too, but they start with an advantage.) Not just swimming, but playing, water polo, body surfing… And they are good at all strokes, even if they’re more competitive in some than others. Because learning to swim efficiently in one stroke helps develop feel for the water, and that helps all your swimming.

    Maybe, just maybe, a natural athlete (who was already considered elite in at least 2 other significantly different sports) could start swimming in their teens, and become an elite swimmer. It’d take over their life, with 20+ hours/week swimming. But maybe it could happen. An average teen could probably be a decent DIII or DII swimmer by the time they graduated college.

    KatieBunevmo

    Life begins at the end of your comfort zone. --Neale Donald Walsch

  • abeabe australiaMember

    Michael - you seem like an educated person so I think if you want to be an elite swimmer you need to train with elite swim squad - not sure why you are training with triathletes.
    If you are struggling to get a lap of backstroke or breastroke think you may be to late to swimming.

    IronMike
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber
    edited June 2022

    @abe said:
    Michael - you seem like an educated person so I think if you want to be an elite swimmer you need to train with elite swim squad - not sure why you are training with triathletes.
    If you are struggling to get a lap of backstroke or breastroke think you may be to late to swimming.

    Triathlon training can help my running in addition to my swimming, which will be helpful for my orienteering. Therefore I hope that by training triathlons I can get 2 for the price of 1.

    P.S. If I want to become a high-level long distance swimmer and a high-level marathon runner at the same time, shouldn't I train in a triathlon club?

  • ruthruth New Jersey, USAMember

    obviously triathletes train in breastroke, otherwise how would they know how to deliver such powerful kicks to the ribs during a mass start? (this whine brought to you by yesterday's GCBS)

    miklcctEroomnehpetsIronMikemusclewhale89
  • brunobruno Barcelona (Spain)Senior Member

    @miklcct said:

    P.S. If I want to become a high-level long distance swimmer and a high-level marathon runner at the same time, shouldn't I train in a triathlon club?

    You have never get what swimming is about, but apparently you don't know about running either, nor triathlon. There is no such thing as "high-level long distance swimmer and a high-level marathon runner at the same time". Elite ironmen/women would be close, but the best ones are running 2h 45min marathons (high level, but very far from elite marathon runners); and they are pros: training (without whining) is the only thing they do.

    Moreover, you should be aware that many many many triathletes neglect swimming training, because as they say, you cannot win a triathlon in the swim (they forget the part where you can lose triathlon in the swim). Strong cyclist/runners with a weaker swim can perform well, and improving swimming takes a lot more hours (as you have found out yourself) than improving running.

    @miklcct said:

    Triathlon training can help my running in addition to my swimming, which will be helpful for my orienteering. Therefore I hope that by training triathlons I can get 2 for the price of 1.

    And it seems you don't know maths, either. If you split your training, say 33% each sport (orienteering, swimming, running - e.g. 3 days/week each one, assuming you double some days), you get the results for each sport of only training 3 days/week. Guess what: with 3 days/week you just get average level on each sport.

    Sessions focused of one specific sports don't add up to the other sports. Of course cross-training has benefits, but to get a good level on different sports you don't need cross-training, you need specific sessions for specific sports.

    Going back to the title of the thread: learning and training all 4 strokes (and I'd add the dolphin kick too) is actual cross-training for front crawl, which would rocket your performance and your level - if you were willing to work hard and listen to good advice.

    As others have said, at least you will need breaststroke and backstroke at some point (sightseeing, swimming with your head up to avoid sewage, talking to your crew on the boat, stretching...).

    CazzwimcurlyYorkshireTomIronMike
  • brunobruno Barcelona (Spain)Senior Member

    Moreover: if you are training some animal sets (required to be a long distance swimmer), adding a few series of different strokes make the session more fun!

    IronMike
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited June 2022

    @JSwim said:
    Elite swimmers have an extraordinary feel for the water.

    I just want to call out @JSwim's excellent comment above. It can be difficult to understand "feel for the water" until you're quite experienced in swimming - as even elite swimmers will have better/worse "feel" on a given day. It's ephemeral and hard to capture, but you know it when you feel it.

    I haven't trained seriously for any non-freestyle stroke since the 1990s (I was a backstroke specialist in my youth), but I still work all four strokes in every workout for the exact reason mentioned above. Butterfly, backstroke, and breaststroke work different (but still swim-specific) muscles, provide a more comprehensive aquatic workout, reduce/unwind strain on front-crawl specific muscles, and reinforce and develop the all-valuable feel for the water. I train all four strokes despite having ZERO intention of racing any of the other three strokes in competition.

    abbygirlrosecurlyJSwimYorkshireTomIronMikeKatieBun
  • Plus, for those of us who are “adult onset butterfliers”, it doubles as hypoxia training!

    @evmo said:

    I haven't trained seriously for any non-freestyle stroke since the 1990s (I was a backstroke specialist in my youth), but I still work all four strokes in every workout for the exact reason mentioned above. Butterfly, backstroke, and breaststroke work different (but still swim-specific) muscles, provide a more comprehensive aquatic workout, reduce strain on front-crawl specific muscles, and reinforce and develop my all-valuable feel for the water. I train all four strokes despite having ZERO intention of racing any of the other three strokes in competition.

    IronMike
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    I agree with that "feel for the water" concept. Being able to do all the strokes merely scratches the surface. When you watch a swimmer move in the water you can tell the difference between a swimmer and a person in the water who is "swimming." It's almost imperceptible to someone who doesn't know what they are looking at. Real swimmers move in the water by using their whole body. Watch how a swimmer moves in the water when they aren't swimming. You flick your feet, you twitch your hand, you flex and spin and twist and turn. You have to learn how to move in a fluid, just like a bird learns how to move in air.

    To the subject at hand. I can spot triathlete who is swimming almost immediately. They can be strong and athletic, but swimming isn't their native language. I used to swim with a triathlete who was very fit and took all his conditioning seriously. He was definitely fitter and stronger than me. He was also about my size. The thing that amazed me was when we flip turned simultaneously, I would jet out in front of him before we even did a stroke. It was like he was pushing off into cement. I could never figure out what the difference was. I'd just glide out ahead of him like nothing, and I'm a lazy flip turner. But I do know how to move through water.

    Swim training encompasses all four strokes and that's how you become a proficient swimmer. Triathlon training encompasses three different disciplines, swim, bike, run. It's a different sport with different requirements. If you train for triathlon, you will become good at triathlon. If you train for swimming, you will become good at swimming. But it takes a talented individual to ignore millions of hours of expertise to chart their own path and become elite in a sport that they don't comprehend.

    abbygirlroseCazzwimevmo
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @curly said:
    I agree with that "feel for the water" concept. Being able to do all the strokes merely scratches the surface. When you watch a swimmer move in the water you can tell the difference between a swimmer and a person in the water who is "swimming." It's almost imperceptible to someone who doesn't know what they are looking at. Real swimmers move in the water by using their whole body. Watch how a swimmer moves in the water when they aren't swimming. You flick your feet, you twitch your hand, you flex and spin and twist and turn. You have to learn how to move in a fluid, just like a bird learns how to move in air.

    To the subject at hand. I can spot triathlete who is swimming almost immediately. They can be strong and athletic, but swimming isn't their native language. I used to swim with a triathlete who was very fit and took all his conditioning seriously. He was definitely fitter and stronger than me. He was also about my size. The thing that amazed me was when we flip turned simultaneously, I would jet out in front of him before we even did a stroke. It was like he was pushing off into cement. I could never figure out what the difference was. I'd just glide out ahead of him like nothing, and I'm a lazy flip turner. But I do know how to move through water.

    This is demoralising.

    If I can't become a real "swimmer" I really think I should write off everything I did in the last 3 years and give up the sport by October and have a conclusion that open water swimming is not the sport for me and put my effort into running instead. I was surprised a few years ago that I got visible improvement in my running time doing minimal run training but 15+ km / week swim training.

    IronMike
  • abeabe australiaMember

    Michael - swimmers come in all shapes and sizes and have their own challenge so your definition of real swimmer is not necessarily elite.
    In your definition good to see reality has come thru that you can now reset your goals and enjoy sport

  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @abe said:
    Michael - swimmers come in all shapes and sizes and have their own challenge so your definition of real swimmer is not necessarily elite.
    In your definition good to see reality has come thru that you can now reset your goals and enjoy sport

    My enjoyment in open water swimming (including marathon swimming) comes from pack racing. It isn't fun if I lose the pack soon after starting. Of course, like any competitive sports, I look for improvement in my performance to get higher ranking.

    The problem I'm encountering is that there aren't enough opportunities for me to race at an amateur level in the region I am in. Looking at the ASA calendar there are only 1 or 2 open water races per year in the whole of Southern England, unlike in Czechia where there are open water race series nearly every weekend in summer with masters age-group rankings which my friend CK Mak enjoys.

    Even in pool swimming, there are very few masters events offering 800 or 1500 m races - those few I can find are either region-restricted, have a high qualification criteria or fully subscribed well before the deadline (most masters events have only up to 200 or 400 m races). As such, alongside with my difficulty in finding training, I have an impression that this sport (long distance open water swimming) is unwelcoming to beginners unlike orienteering and triathlon.

    My interest in swimming is in open water swimming only. However, as I see medallists in marathon swimming are also medallists in 1500 m pool races, I have accepted pool swimming as a mean to improve marathon swimming. However, is it the same across different strokes as well? i.e. is a 200 m freestyle medallist likely to also be a 200 m butterfly / backstroke medallist?

    curly
  • bruckbruck San FranciscoMember
    edited June 2022

    @miklcct there's no such thing as a "real swimmer" or "non-real swimmer." @curly is talking about the very real and nearly-unbridgeable technical gap between swimmers who developed their feel for the water in pre-pubescence, and adult-onset triathletes (who may very well be incredibly skilled land-athletes). Swimming is a profoundly technical skill - compared to running (a natural, evolved human activity) and cycling. There's nothing similar between cycling+running, and swimming, except the aerobic engine, which is negligible in contributing to swimming speed.

    My enjoyment in open water swimming (including marathon swimming) comes from pack racing. It isn't fun if I lose the pack soon after starting.

    I'm really curious, when have you ever experienced this "pack racing" which you claim to so enjoy. What specific events. How do you know that you enjoy it? Or is it just an abstraction? You admire other people who do it.

    IronMike
  • bruckbruck San FranciscoMember
    edited June 2022

    @miklcct your comments on this Forum, and in this thread, give the impression that you think you are smarter than everyone here. Smarter than people with literally thousands of hours more swimming experience than you. You aren't. If you are good at orienteering or computer programming - this means truly nothing, regarding your ability to learn swimming.

    You cannot out-think swimming.

    A beginner swimmer needs to realize with honest self-reflection, that they know nothing about swimming - and put themselves in a learning mindset, rather than bias-confirmation.

    You need to redefine your goals, or quit the sport.

    YorkshireTomIronMikeKatieBun
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    @miklcct said:
    I have an impression that this sport (long distance open water swimming) is unwelcoming to beginners unlike orienteering and triathlon.

    Wrong.

    My interest in swimming is in open water swimming only. However, as I see medallists in marathon swimming are also medallists in 1500 m pool races, I have accepted pool swimming as a mean to improve marathon swimming. However, is it the same across different strokes as well? i.e. is a 200 m freestyle medallist likely to also be a 200 m butterfly / backstroke medallist?

    I'm glad to hear you have accepted pool swimming as a means to improve marathon swimming. Water is an interesting medium. It's the same, but different, depending on what body of water you are in. So the more different bodies of water that you have experience in, the better swimmer you become.

    Regarding the different strokes. It takes a truly outstanding swimmer to be able to medal in multiple strokes. See Michael Phelps as an example. But as you well know, he is a complete outlier. The best of his generation. So don't put it in your head that you need to be an elite swimmer in all four strokes. You just need to be competent. BTW, Phelps can't win in backstroke or breaststroke, so no big deal if you aren't the best in the world at all four strokes, you still can win a bunch of gold.

    Your observation that your running improved because you have been swimming more and running less is a very keen observation. It is entirely possible to overtrain and over think in almost any activity. Sometimes backing off will generate gains. You've given your body a break and it's coming back rested and refreshed and ready for action. You might want to think about that a bit more.

    You constantly perplex me. Why can't you enjoy open water swimming? You constantly make it into this insurmountable task by setting unrealistic goals and then disappointing yourself by failing. Swimming is such a great sport and it is something that you can do for your entire life. But if you continue with your idiotic approach you will live a lifetime of disappointment. If that's the case, I would agree with your choice to forget swimming and focus on something else.

    Cazzwim
  • ruthruth New Jersey, USAMember

    Even in pool swimming, there are very few masters events offering 800 or 1500 m races - those few I can find are either region-restricted, have a high qualification criteria or fully subscribed well before the deadline (most masters events have only up to 200 or 400 m races). As such, alongside with my difficulty in finding training, I have an impression that this sport (long distance open water swimming) is unwelcoming to beginners unlike orienteering and triathlon.

    You conclude that because there aren't many 800-1500 m pool races, open water swimming is unfriendly to beginners? k.

    Masters pool races of that distance are rare because there isn't much interest in them (most people who want to swim a mile will do it in open water), and because they take forever. If you have a 20 minute mile (which is faster than you or I can swim a mile), and you have to run several heats of it, you're looking at an hour or more of mile swims. No one wants to watch that, no one wants to rent pool time for that long. That's the logistics of why you can't find many events like this. Hell, even when I was in college (DIII, don't get excited lol) 80% of meets didn't have these events.

    Personally, I've never met a more welcoming group than OW swimmers, and I think that it is beginner-friendly (at least with a swimming background). In the course of one season, I went from a one-mile race to a 10k, and then the next year up to 10 miles, and then covid happened yada yada, I'm up to 15 miles, looking toward channels in the upcoming seasons.

    I am not an elite swimmer. I will never be an elite swimmer. When other people have told you that, you've asked them what they're going to do to become elite. Perhaps you find swimmers unwelcoming because of your habit of shitting on all swimmers and swims who aren't literal professional caliber, which 99.9% aren't. That's pretty rude, and might contribute to people giving you the cold shoulder.

    My interest in swimming is in open water swimming only. However, as I see medallists in marathon swimming are also medallists in 1500 m pool races, I have accepted pool swimming as a mean to improve marathon swimming. However, is it the same across different strokes as well? i.e. is a 200 m freestyle medallist likely to also be a 200 m butterfly / backstroke medallist?

    Strokes tend to have specialists, so freestyle medalists may also be stroke medalists, but not necessarily. Especially if you get into like, breaststroke, those people are weirdos :wink:

    As to your love of pack swimming, there are many packs! You can usually find someone to race! I did the Great Chesapeake Bay Swim this weekend, and I finished more than an hour behind the fastest swimmers. And yet, I was always racing someone. I've spent upwards of an hour racing a swimmer at my toes, finishing <30 seconds apart in an 8 mile race. That's exciting! Who cares that we were vying for 3rd in a small, local race? We raced each other, hugged it out at the finish line (that's 30-something lady for shaking hands and saying good game) and then had a hotdog and a beer. It was fun! Which is the point!

    IronMikemusclewhale89
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @ruth said:

    Even in pool swimming, there are very few masters events offering 800 or 1500 m races - those few I can find are either region-restricted, have a high qualification criteria or fully subscribed well before the deadline (most masters events have only up to 200 or 400 m races). As such, alongside with my difficulty in finding training, I have an impression that this sport (long distance open water swimming) is unwelcoming to beginners unlike orienteering and triathlon.

    You conclude that because there aren't many 800-1500 m pool races, open water swimming is unfriendly to beginners? k.

    There also aren't many open water swimming races with masters age groups as I mentioned above - about 1 or 2 in the whole of Southern England in a year on the Swim England calendar.

    Personally, I've never met a more welcoming group than OW swimmers, and I think that it is beginner-friendly (at least with a swimming background). In the course of one season, I went from a one-mile race to a 10k, and then the next year up to 10 miles, and then covid happened yada yada, I'm up to 15 miles, looking toward channels in the upcoming seasons.

    I had the same experience with you before COVID. However, after I went from 3 km to 13 km in a season, I realised that I wanted to improve my times at the ~10 km distance such that I would be competitive in the national championship, while doing the Channel in the interim.

    As a result I wanted to find a competitive swim club with a heavy emphasis in long distance OW swimming instead, but I couldn't find anything. The closest I could find were triathlon clubs which I joined one, with a bonus that I could train running there as well.

    Even my mentor isn't going to support me if I tell him my goal is to become an elite swimmer, and he has no intention to do so. He supported me in my journey to the Channel but after I failed it, we had got a conclusion that I would need to be an elite swimmer to make it a guarantee like Chloë McCardel. As a result I currently don't have another plan to try it again as I'm clearly far from her ability, and what happened last year has already destroyed my confidence in swimming in anything but calm water.

    I am not an elite swimmer. I will never be an elite swimmer. When other people have told you that, you've asked them what they're going to do to become elite. Perhaps you find swimmers unwelcoming because of your habit of shitting on all swimmers and swims who aren't literal professional caliber, which 99.9% aren't. That's pretty rude, and might contribute to people giving you the cold shoulder.

    I'm using the same attitude across all sports and in orienteering this isn't true. Most people had elite aspiration, trained together, and congratulated when one got elite qualified. Elites and mere mortals trained together and raced together.

    My interest in swimming is in open water swimming only. However, as I see medallists in marathon swimming are also medallists in 1500 m pool races, I have accepted pool swimming as a mean to improve marathon swimming. However, is it the same across different strokes as well? i.e. is a 200 m freestyle medallist likely to also be a 200 m butterfly / backstroke medallist?

    Strokes tend to have specialists, so freestyle medalists may also be stroke medalists, but not necessarily. Especially if you get into like, breaststroke, those people are weirdos :wink:

    As to your love of pack swimming, there are many packs! You can usually find someone to race! I did the Great Chesapeake Bay Swim this weekend, and I finished more than an hour behind the fastest swimmers. And yet, I was always racing someone. I've spent upwards of an hour racing a swimmer at my toes, finishing <30 seconds apart in an 8 mile race. That's exciting! Who cares that we were vying for 3rd in a small, local race? We raced each other, hugged it out at the finish line (that's 30-something lady for shaking hands and saying good game) and then had a hotdog and a beer. It was fun! Which is the point!

    My experience in pack swimming started in aquathons, which I really enjoyed. I like to swim more than to run but there are very few pure open water swimming races in the ASA calendar compared to triathlon races in the BTF calendar.

    If there are more open water swimming races and a ranking scheme in the ASA I can just enjoy the sport more even if I'm not an elite, and to better plan my roadmap to become an elite.

  • @miklcct said:
    There also aren't many open water swimming races with masters age groups as I mentioned above - about 1 or 2 in the whole of Southern England in a year on the Swim England calendar.

    Michael, there are now dozens if not more open water races in every region of the UK, every year. These may not be Swim England championships, but frankly, that's irrelevant. You say that pack racing is what you look for, and this is available every weekend should you choose to enter. Instead you complain about the lack of elite racing.

    I raced last weekend at a small event in Yorkshire. It was only a mile race, but a competitive field and great fun. There were three swimmers out front battling the whole way. After we crossed the finish line we all shock hands and congratulated each other. This is what you say you're looking for. It's available where you live, so there are no excuses.

    But to pick up on what you said earlier about the OW community being unfriendly. About 10 years ago I was exactly where you were. I was a very average swimmer looking to improve. My 1500m time was also close to 27 minutes. There was no Masters club locally, so I joined my local triathlon club for pool sessions. They were very welcoming, and whilst I wasn't a great swimmer, I showed up and worked hard every session, wanting to improve. Good OW swimmers took me under their wing and let me join them for other training (yes I even learned other strokes, and this was a huge boost to my freestyle). They encouraged me into marathon swimming and have become lifelong friends. I've dramatically improved my times, and I even win the occasional open water race, but I won't be an elite swimmer. I have lots of goals in swimming, and lots of supportive people around me. You have had so much input from so many swimmers I could only dream of emulating, yet you still say that the community isn't supportive. I find that impossible to comprehend.

    If you are truly serious about improving your swimming, I will gladly sit down with you, devise some realistic goals, and a plan to achieve them.

    ruthCazzwim
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @YorkshireTom said:

    @miklcct said:
    There also aren't many open water swimming races with masters age groups as I mentioned above - about 1 or 2 in the whole of Southern England in a year on the Swim England calendar.

    Michael, there are now dozens if not more open water races in every region of the UK, every year. These may not be Swim England championships, but frankly, that's irrelevant. You say that pack racing is what you look for, and this is available every weekend should you choose to enter. Instead you complain about the lack of elite racing.

    I didn't talk about elite racing. I specifically complain about the lack of non-elite (age-group) racing on the Swim England calendar.

    I raced last weekend at a small event in Yorkshire. It was only a mile race, but a competitive field and great fun. There were three swimmers out front battling the whole way. After we crossed the finish line we all shock hands and congratulated each other. This is what you say you're looking for. It's available where you live, so there are no excuses.

    I'll check the Swim England calendar again to see if there is anything in London and South East. If so I'll sign up.

    But to pick up on what you said earlier about the OW community being unfriendly. About 10 years ago I was exactly where you were. I was a very average swimmer looking to improve. My 1500m time was also close to 27 minutes. There was no Masters club locally, so I joined my local triathlon club for pool sessions. They were very welcoming, and whilst I wasn't a great swimmer, I showed up and worked hard every session, wanting to improve. Good OW swimmers took me under their wing and let me join them for other training (yes I even learned other strokes, and this was a huge boost to my freestyle). They encouraged me into marathon swimming and have become lifelong friends. I've dramatically improved my times, and I even win the occasional open water race, but I won't be an elite swimmer. I have lots of goals in swimming, and lots of supportive people around me. You have had so much input from so many swimmers I could only dream of emulating, yet you still say that the community isn't supportive. I find that impossible to comprehend.

    People think that I can't ever become as good as (insert some names of Hong Kong Olympians and Channel record holders here).

    Meanwhile, I am hoping I can join a community where everyone aims and trains for improvement, with getting into regionals / nationals / internationals / Olympics the main goal.

    If you are truly serious about improving your swimming, I will gladly sit down with you, devise some realistic goals, and a plan to achieve them.

    I only have one long term goal in swimming now: to qualify for the England open water swimming nationals (or the equivalent in the place where I live).

  • abbygirlroseabbygirlrose Los Angeles and Palo Alto, CASenior Member

    Honestly, I don't know why I feel compelled to keep commenting.

    @miklcct said:
    Meanwhile, I am hoping I can join a community where everyone aims and trains for improvement, with getting into regionals / nationals / internationals / Olympics the main goal.

    I think it is totally legitimate to want to join a community that trains for improvement. Thinking that everyone should be aiming for the Olympics or they are a failure is ridiculous.

    IronMikeCazzwim
  • abeabe australiaMember

    Michael - you getting lots of attention and advice, must be confusing
    My advice is enjoy what you are doing or quit

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    edited June 2022

    @miklcct said:

    @curly said:
    I agree with that "feel for the water" concept. Being able to do all the strokes merely scratches the surface. When you watch a swimmer move in the water you can tell the difference between a swimmer and a person in the water who is "swimming." It's almost imperceptible to someone who doesn't know what they are looking at. Real swimmers move in the water by using their whole body. Watch how a swimmer moves in the water when they aren't swimming. You flick your feet, you twitch your hand, you flex and spin and twist and turn. You have to learn how to move in a fluid, just like a bird learns how to move in air.

    To the subject at hand. I can spot triathlete who is swimming almost immediately. They can be strong and athletic, but swimming isn't their native language. I used to swim with a triathlete who was very fit and took all his conditioning seriously. He was definitely fitter and stronger than me. He was also about my size. The thing that amazed me was when we flip turned simultaneously, I would jet out in front of him before we even did a stroke. It was like he was pushing off into cement. I could never figure out what the difference was. I'd just glide out ahead of him like nothing, and I'm a lazy flip turner. But I do know how to move through water.

    This is demoralising.

    If I can't become a real "swimmer" I really think I should write off everything I did in the last 3 years and give up the sport by October and have a conclusion that open water swimming is not the sport for me and put my effort into running instead. I was surprised a few years ago that I got visible improvement in my running time doing minimal run training but 15+ km / week swim training.

    Like I said. Quit. Stick to orienteering. Or for once and for all, say thank you to all the people here who have given you advice.

    @miklcct said:
    P.S. If I want to become a high-level long distance swimmer and a high-level marathon runner at the same time, shouldn't I train in a triathlon club?

    I'm losing count on how many sports you aim to be elite in. Orienteering (check), marathon swimming, marathon running. Seriously?

    @bruno said:
    training (without whining) is the only thing they do.

    This is my favorite quote of this entire thread.

    YorkshireTomCazzwim

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • PappyjoePappyjoe North TexasNew Member
    edited June 2022

    Admin folks, What do you think - about time to turn this guy (miklcct) off the forum. He is nothing but a distraction and sucking the positive energy from us. Had to say it.

    YorkshireTomCazzwimakswimmusclewhale89
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    @Pappyjoe said:
    Admin folks, What do you think - about time to turn this guy (miklcct) off the forum. He is nothing but a distraction and sucking the positive energy from us. Had to say it.

    I'd imagine he keeps the traffic count high though. It's a strange combination of wanting to help a stray puppy and wanting to throw the kitten down the well. Almost irresistible. Perhaps @evmo created this alternate persona to grow the website. Hmmmmmm.... the controversy. And now I'm a conspiracy theorist....

    CazzwimPappyjoeMLamby
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