speedwork

How important is speedwork when training for a 10 mile open water swim? I am relatively new to marathon swimming and I am training for Swim The Suck in October. Should I focus mainly on endurance and form (which i love!) or also add in some speedwork ( which i hate)? I currently swim 4 days per week averaging 12-13,000y per week, and will add a 5th when pool reopens after maintenance.. I also use a VASA trainer to work on form/strength and stroke rate (and to use when pool is closed). Also, are there any training plans out there to use as a template?

PasqualemiklcctLakeBagger

Comments

  • Laurie, I would say that it depends how fast you want to swim! :) I think of speed as a tool in my toolbelt. I can always kick or increase my turnover in a pinch, but getting through a 10 mile+ swim like the Swim the Suck (with some current assist!) is more about enduring.

    LakeBaggerflystorms
  • LaurieLaurie New Member

    I’m not looking to win, only to finish and feel well to the end. Thanks for the info!

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    I still do a bit of speed work, if you call it speed (all relative), for those times when I am coming up near someone and I want to pass them. And if I've got a 5K coming up, I'll definitely do speedwork, mostly things like swim LSD for an hour, then 10-min fast (again, relative). Can't hurt and it breaks up a boring long swim.

    Enjoy StS. That's my favorite swim of all time. Done it 3 times and will try to get in again in the future.

    LakeBagger

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • celsarbo5celsarbo5 FresnoMember

    @Laurie said:
    How important is speedwork when training for a 10 mile open water swim? I am relatively new to marathon swimming and I am training for Swim The Suck in October. Should I focus mainly on endurance and form (which i love!) or also add in some speedwork ( which i hate)? I currently swim 4 days per week averaging 12-13,000y per week, and will add a 5th when pool reopens after maintenance.. I also use a VASA trainer to work on form/strength and stroke rate (and to use when pool is closed). Also, are there any training plans out there to use as a template?

    Speedwork has always been important to me, but like sha4404 points out The Suck is more about endurance :-)

  • MLambyMLamby Senior Member
    edited February 2021

    I think you will definitely get widely ranging opinions, but for me, it's about the endurance. It's as much mental/psychological as it is physical. I'm a one-speed-wonder personally, and it has served me just fine. I can cruise at 1.8 mph for hours (2.0 on a good day) and that has afforded me perfectly acceptable success in my swims. I've never done any "speed" training ever (other than to increase my stroke and catch for a bit and then ease back up). I am always amazed at the amount of toys and tricks other swimmers use while training next to me and I'm there just plodding along before and long after they have finished their set. I've wondered if I should try all that as well, and then think "nah, stick with what works for you." I certainly understand that sprinting can absolutely help for certain situations within a long distance swim, or if you are looking to be super-competitive. But, if you really hate speed training, and are just looking to be a finisher like some of the rest of us, you can do perfectly fine without it. IMHO. All the best!

    Openh2oLakeBaggerakswimsha44o4
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    I'll take a little contrarian approach to this discussion. I think it's always useful to have some speed work in your training. First and foremost, it breaks things up and makes your training interesting. It's a fun day when instead of cranking out a couple miles, you instead try to blast as fast as you can for a set of 100's for example.

    If you have a favorite set and send off, it's great to be able to see a little bit of improvement on your time. It also keeps you from becoming a metronome. If you settle into your all-day pace for ever, then it becomes too damn easy for you. You don't fail, but you also never improve.

    Speed work gives your muscles a chance to try something different. That's good for you. You may never want to be a sprinter, but you will be a better long distance swimmer by throwing a little gas on the fire every now and then. Go fast just because it's fun.

    I would also recommend doing a little bit of the different strokes. It's great to mix things up for two reasons. First it gives other muscle movements a chance to develop and it also adds variety to a workout. I throw some breast stroke into my workouts every so often even though I hate that stroke with a passion.

    swimfreeordieLakeBaggerMLambySwimmersuzIronMikemina
  • MLambyMLamby Senior Member

    @curly Speed work gives your muscles a chance to try something different. That's good for you. You may never want to be a sprinter, but you will be a better long distance swimmer by throwing a little gas on the fire every now and then. Go fast just because it's fun.

    That's the problem....some of us don't think going fast is fun....unless you're being towed. LOL!! The rest of your post is awesome advice. :)

    All the best!

    curly
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    @MLamby said:
    ... Go fast just because it's fun.

    That's the problem....some of us don't think going fast is fun....

    I suppose I should have said to go faster than normal. I think fast is definitely a relative term. My "fast" is probably another swimmers easy warm up pace.

    MLamby
  • swimrn62swimrn62 Stowe, VTSenior Member

    I love this discussion because I also dislike speed work. The general consensus is that speed work is good for you so just do it. But you can always pick your swims to accommodate your happy pace. Avoid swims with time limits that aren't within reach, or that require you to swim hard against a current to be able to finish. Or opt to do those swims as a challenge or as a training swim, as long as not finishing doesn't discourage you.

    I'll be at Swim the Suck, too, my first time, I hope to meet you there. I'll be easy to find at the back of the pack.

    Lyn

    IronMikeMLambysha44o4minathelittlemerwookie
  • For me, trying to swim fast brings out all of my bad habits! So focusing on enduring and only swimming as fast as I can swim anatomically correct is key!

    MLamby
  • ColmBreathnachColmBreathnach Charter Member

    Speed work is important. Swimming at all day pace all the time has to be a bad thing and is boring as hell.
    If you're feeling particularly masochistic, try some USPRT sets.

    What's your opinion on the vasa trainer? I've long envied one.

    miklcctSoloIronMike
  • LaurieLaurie New Member

    I’ve used the VASA 3 x week for the last 2 weeks due to pool closure. I think it will definitely help with strength and is good for practicing good catch and high elbow. We will see how it helps more later in the season. But it has made me feel better to know I have an option when the pool is closed or work schedule is bad.

  • MLambyMLamby Senior Member
    edited February 2021

    @ColmBreathnach said:
    Speed work is important. Swimming at all day pace all the time has to be a bad thing and is boring as hell.
    If you're feeling particularly masochistic, try some USPRT sets.

    What's your opinion on the vasa trainer? I've long envied one.

    Well, I would have to politely disagree with you. Swimming at all day pace allows some of us to....well...swim all day, and it is absolutely not "boring as hell." I logged between 300-400 miles last year (pool and OW), so I must not be getting too bored. :) My longest was 9 miles in a little under five hours. We are all different. :)

    akswimKrisLarsen
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    Yes, but if you swim at your all day pace then it takes you all day to get there...

    Some of us like to have some time to drink beer... :p

    Solominadpm50
  • MLambyMLamby Senior Member

    Are you kidding? Beer to time left in the day quotient is NEVER an issue!

    IronMikeflystorms
  • LaurieLaurie New Member

    There is always time for beer!

    IronMikeMLambydpm50
  • dpm50dpm50 PA, U.S.Senior Member

    Also doing STS and looking forward to meeting fellow swimmers there! I was deferred from last year, so yay! Hopefully get to swim it this year. 2nd covid shot next Wed.!

    Speed? Um, the only award I could possibly get is "oldest swimmer" (I'm 70 but don't tell anyone!) ;) In late Aug of last year, I completed the 8 mile Bender Memorial Marathon Swim (starts downstream, finishes upstream), have been training through winter, so my goal now is to stay healthy, keep training, and be ready to go on race day.

    Deep, dark secret? I actually like speed work, and this is NOT because I'm fast! I'm in the slow lane in my masters' practice, and yes, like the distance sets too, even (weirdly) enjoy some stroke sets. (A good butterfly is one of my aspirations, although I'm still a ways from that.)

    I enjoy variety, what can I say! Last night's practice included a set of 20x25. It was my second practice of the day, and on arriving at the pool, I was questioning whether a double was something I, in fact, wanted. After the 25s, I was all energized and buzzing!

    For sprints, the song I let play through my mind is "Born to be Wild."

    At the time, for longer distance sets, I notice that sometimes I'm catching the lanemates who had streaked ahead of me in sprints.

    All good!

    LakeBaggerSoloIronMike
  • LakeBaggerLakeBagger Central OregonSenior Member

    On the topic of speed work and ultra-endurance athletes, some might find this podcast episode called, “mileage matters most” interesting:

    https://www.scienceofultra.com/podcasts/136

    It’s a podcast about the science of ultra running, which may be relevant to ultraswimming as well.

    A transcript is available at the link above (along with the audio stream) for those who prefer reading over listening. Here is a relevant quote, but I found the whole episode very interesting.

    “In a 2020 study in Nature Communications titled Human running performance from real-world big data, the authors analyzed real-world running activities of ≈ 14,000 individuals with ≈ 1.6 million exercise sessions containing duration and distance, with a total distance of ≈ 20 million km. They found that the fastest runners keep most of their training easy while slower runners spend more of their running time at relatively harder efforts. "Our findings can be interpreted as faster runners train typically at lower relative intensities which is consistent with high-intensity performance improvement due to low-intensity training.”

    So for those of you who don’t like speed work, it seems you are in luck. For those who do, maybe just don’t do too many high intensity sessions a week.

    evmoMLambySolowendyv34IronMike
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    @LakeBagger said:
    .....They found that the fastest runners keep most of their training easy while slower runners spend more of their running time at relatively harder efforts. "Our findings can be interpreted as faster runners train typically at lower relative intensities which is consistent with high-intensity performance improvement due to low-intensity training.”

    So for those of you who don’t like speed work, it seems you are in luck. For those who do, maybe just don’t do too many high intensity sessions a week.

    I haven't listened to the podcast, so I may be speaking out of turn here. But it seems like one interpretation of the above could be that faster runners don't need to work as hard at it. In a short race, technical flaws can be the one thing that differentiates first place from second place. Strength and endurance are secondary.

    I know that in my old swim team days, the sprinters were the laziest bunch. They'd be dying on any sets that had any sort of distance and would be at the back of the line whining. But put them in a sprint race and they were fast as all heck and could blow me out of the water effortlessly.

    A few years ago I met up with an old team mate from college. He was a good sprinter back in the day. We asked each other if we were still swimming etc. He still does a regular workout. He still looked in good shape. I asked him what kind of distance he was doing in his workout. 500 yds!

    We are on different planets...

    LakeBaggermiklcctMLambyflystorms
  • LakeBaggerLakeBagger Central OregonSenior Member

    @curly good point and it’s often hard to say why there is a correlation between two things. Researchers caution each other from assuming one thing (training at a low intensity) causes another thing (faster speeds). I looked into the actual study (not the podcast which mentioned the study) and it seems they used some advanced statistical modeling methods to analyze the data in a way that justifies their interpretation.

    The subjects in the study had all completed a run over the marathon length distance during the three year period 2015-2018, so no sprinters in that bunch.

    Anyone interested can check it out here, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18737-6. It’s nice ‘n technical, whereas the podcast is more accessible.

    Another interesting thing the study authors pointed out is, “Slow runners must train at a relative high intensity if they want to avoid a transition to walking.” Which could partially explain the difference in training intensities among runners of different speeds.

    Similarly, slower swimmers may have to work harder in order to keep swimming at any speed, whereas faster swimmers have a bigger range to choose from—they can rest by swimming slowly instead of stopping to rest or they can swim faster to achieve a higher heart rate. For a newer swimmer, just getting in the water and swimming laps might automatically be a high intensity workout.

    JSwimcurlydpm50
  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member

    I haven't really done any "speed work" since I moved on from <5K races, but I believe that putting in some hard efforts toward the end (or in the middle) of a long workout is beneficial. One frequently encounters changing conditions during a long swim, so preparing the body (and mind) to overcome currents, wind, etc. when tired can make the difference between finishing and giving up. That being said, if you only have 45 minutes to swim on your lunch break, putting in a bit more effort feels like a better use of time.

    LakeBaggerPasquale

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

  • LakeBaggerLakeBagger Central OregonSenior Member

    @wendyv34 said:
    I haven't really done any "speed work" since I moved on from <5K races, but I believe that putting in some hard efforts toward the end (or in the middle) of a long workout is beneficial.

    @wendyv34 Definitely beneficial—I still remember when you cruised past me in the last 500 meters on the Applegate 10k years ago. I was so impressed I didn’t even have time to notice I lost :)! I distinctly remember thinking, “that lady’s awesome, I want to do what she’s doin’” I recall having a conversation about marathon swimming afterwards—you were the first person I ever met who was swimming through the winter. I just thought that was so cool!

    wendyv34
  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member

    @wendyv34 Definitely beneficial—I still remember when you cruised past me in the last 500 meters on the Applegate 10k years ago. I was so impressed I didn’t even have time to notice I lost :)! I distinctly remember thinking, “that lady’s awesome, I want to do what she’s doin’” I recall having a conversation about marathon swimming afterwards—you were the first person I ever met who was swimming through the winter. I just thought that was so cool!

    That was a fun day, swimming my 10K PR!

    And look at you now...kicking butt all over the place. B)

    LakeBaggerSolo

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    I realized something recently germane to this thread. Wrote about it on my blog, but long story short:

    In Djibouti I did mostly (95% of the time?) LSD swimming. 151 miles during that deployment, and pretty much the only time I went fast was when I was swimming to get on the age-group board (51 and over, 100m, 200m, 400m, 800m, 1600m). No USRPT or anything like that.

    Prior to deploying last year, my USRPT was 100 yards on 1:38 or faster, leaving on the 2:00. I'd go 12 or so before the first failure.

    Back from Djibouti, in the same pool, I'm knocking out the USRPT 100s on 1:24-1:25. And I didn't get magically younger while deployed. I even did a 1:21. First failure is at rep 7 or 8, but still. I've never swum that fast. Can't explain it.

    AdultOnsetSwimmer

    JSwim

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • gtswimgtswim PennsylvaniaMember

    No reason you can't work both into a workout. I did the 3000 yd set below this morning. I swam the short swims at a hard effort and swam the long swims on a moderate, trying to recover pace.

    Round 1
    25 on :20
    200 on 2:45
    50 on :40
    175 on 2:25
    75 on 1;00
    150 on 2:05
    100 on 1:20
    125 on 1:45

    Round 2
    25 on :20
    175 on 2:25
    50 on :40
    150 on 2:05
    75 on 1:00
    125 on 1:45
    100 on 1:20

    Round 3
    25 on :20
    150 on 2:05
    50 on :40
    125 on 1:45
    75 on 1:00
    100 on 1:25

    Round 4
    25 on :20
    125 on 1:45
    50 on :40
    100 on 1:25
    75 on 1:00

    Round 5
    25 on :20
    100 on 1:25
    50 on :40
    75 on 1:05

    Round 6
    25 on :40
    75 on 1:05
    50 on :40

    Round 7
    25 on :20
    50 on :45

    Round 8
    25 on :20

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