Direct vs. indirect costs of channel swims

This discussion was created from comments split from: The Elephant in the Room - TC, O7, $$.

Comments

  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber
    edited March 2021

    When I signed up for my Channel swim, I only considered the direct cost to do it, which was about £4000. My plan was to do all my pool training before I fly to the UK, then to stay in a place on the coast far from London to work for my acclimation.

    However due to COVID closure I could not do any of my pool training apart from a single month before I depart for the UK. If I need to recover my lost training I've missed, I will need to get back to an unheated outdoor swimming pool, and these are only found in big cities. That means if I do so my living cost will skyrocket, and the cost difference to my original plan is already enough to do a Channel swim. This is a classical case of cost overrun.

    However, as deferral to 2022 is not possible, if I give up and do it in a later year, I will need to spend another 2 years to build up again from zero (as once I give up I will get back to full-time work in a big city without OW opportunity), this will definitely incur even more indirect cost in training. This means I have dug myself a hole which I can't get out. Even the money I have paid by now is sunk cost, if I give up the replacement cost is higher as well so the sunk cost fallacy doesn't even apply here. (if, instead, the cost of doing the Channel swim will go down in the future instead, it will apply here)

    Therefore, I am now interested in how does everyone here factor in the indirect (e.g. training) cost when deciding to do the channel swims? Can anyone here share how much you have spend in indirect cost (e.g. training cost, the cost to move to somewhere else to access training facilities / a good coach / etc, or the opportunity cost when you leave your job in order to make time for training) when making your channel swims? I'll regret if the money I spent to do channel swims eventually can buy me a flat in central London such that I'll never need any commute anymore to a £60k job in my remaining working life, or retire at 35 living in a seaside house at Bournemouth, when I only anticipated £4000 to do a single English Channel swim.

  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    I can't speak directly regarding training costs. I will say that I have lived more than twice as long as you have, so I will offer my perspective. During my life I have made career choices and life choices that have cost me money and time. I have switched careers and halved my salary. I have moved to areas that increased my cost of living. At the time these were breath taking choices and I will confess that I feared my ultimate doom.

    However, with hindsight, these moves, while temporarily debilitating, turned out to move me forward in life. I am in a better position having made these moves. Short term pain for long term gain.

    Look at it this way. If you go attempt to swim the Channel with inadequate preparation and training, you will probably either drown yourself or have to call off the swim. The first option won't give you much time for regret. Judging from your posts, the second option will crush your spirit for years. It's hard to do big things and you will suffer setbacks along the way. Blowing a few thousand dollars will fade into the distance and as time goes on you won't even notice it.

    From the fun movie Gumball Rally, some words to live by...

    Franco:
    And now my friend, the first rule of Italian driving.

    [Franco rips off his rear-view mirror and throws it out of the car]

    Franco:
    What's behind me is not important.

    BogdanZSoloflystorms
  • j9swimj9swim CharlestonSenior Member

    for me swimming is a way of life, i don't think about the indirect costs, lost wages, or the other economic calculations. I do however think about building over multiple years to a bigger goal. for example if building up tolerance to cold water was the goal than i would think about swimming windemere, kingdom, tahoe, and some of the other 10-15 mile colder swims. see if i enjoyed it, made forward progress by being able to swimming for longer periods of time without having a fall off in performance, etc.
    Open water swimming almost never works out like we plan and so we have to adapt. Maybe look at your 2022 costs as a 'failed' attempt at the channel - do you want to try again, what did you learn from the experience that you will take with you on your journey, are you still interested in this swim or do you want to move onto something else in life.
    You are right that figuring out big swims, life, time, and money is a big balancing act but there is no 'right' formula. If the direction you are currently heading doesn't support your happiness or goals then try another direction.
    Personally I decided that i wanted to swim more and not work. So i retired to a less expensive place to live but it also meant that i have less access to colder open water, the pools are very warm, the lakes have alligators. etc. So i have new and different challenges to manage in order to accomplish my goals and so i continue to plan, and try different paths when roadblocks occur. My advice is to be more fluid in your plans, keep reviewing your goals and remember to enjoy the journey.

    curlyKatieBunjendutevmoLakeBaggerswimfreeordieSolocelsarbo5MLambyflystorms
  • KatieBunKatieBun CornwallSenior Member

    There doesn't seem to be any joy in your open water experience, Michael. That makes me sad and I have to ask why you do it. I understand challenging yourself and setting goals, but you seem to worry so much about it all, the training, the cost and your idea that it's all wasted if you don't go ahead with what's booked. Do you feel the same angst with your orienteering competitions? Can you not go with the flow for a while and just enjoy your swimming? You have years and years to do this. If it doesn't work out this time and the logistics make no sense, maybe step back from it for a while and just swim for the joy of it, without worrying about timetables, speed, training and such.

    akswimevmoLakeBaggerIronMikerlmCazzwimSoloMLambywendyv34KrisLarsen
  • brunobruno Barcelona (Spain)Senior Member

    @miklcct I think you got it wrong from the very beginning (or at least since you started posting here). You should re-watch RIO https://forum.marathonswimmers.org/discussion/2161/rio-new-marathon-swimming-documentary , specially from minute 29.30 when @AnthonyMcCarley talks about re-evaluate your goals, re-assess if you are doing it for the right reasons, what you are missing by stubbornly sticking to your initial idea.

    I honestly think you should switch to triathlon. With the $$ cost of a Channel Swim you can buy a couple of really fancy bikes. And you'll only have to endure 1h of swimming at the most, for an Iron Man. Rewards come easier when running and cycling, you just need to be fit - which you obviously are, already.

    As it has been said so many times, marathon swimming is a journey. If it does not bring you joy, what's the point? Hopefully in a few years you'll understand. The good news is that it will never be too late to resume.

    evmoKatieBunLakeBaggerrlmSoloAnthonyMcCarleyMLambyflystormswendyv34
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @j9swim said:
    I do however think about building over multiple years to a bigger goal. for example if building up tolerance to cold water was the goal than i would think about swimming windemere, kingdom, tahoe, and some of the other 10-15 mile colder swims. see if i enjoyed it, made forward progress by being able to swimming for longer periods of time without having a fall off in performance, etc.

    My bigger goal is very clear - to become competitive in 10 - 25 km marathon swimming races at a high level (e.g. at a county or regional level)

    Open water swimming almost never works out like we plan and so we have to adapt. Maybe look at your 2022 costs as a 'failed' attempt at the channel - do you want to try again, what did you learn from the experience that you will take with you on your journey, are you still interested in this swim or do you want to move onto something else in life.

    If I fail the English Channel attempt, it will become the end of my channel swimming career and I will only do races afterwards.
    If I succeed, my original plan was to look forward to Dál Riata or Gibraltar, both are much shorter than the English Channel, but because I'm no longer finding enjoyment in the process because I couldn't follow my perfect once-in-a-lifetime plan and the Channel swim has been cost overrun, I will need to reevaluate my position afterwards, if I can work out a training plan for the other channels that will fit my other life goals and career development before I make any bookings. I'll also avoid bookings too far ahead in the future - maybe 1 year the maximum, better in the same year. (I booked my September 2021 English Channel slot in January 2020)
    If the swim is weathered out, I'll try again next year.

    @KatieBun said:
    There doesn't seem to be any joy in your open water experience, Michael. That makes me sad and I have to ask why you do it. I understand challenging yourself and setting goals, but you seem to worry so much about it all, the training, the cost and your idea that it's all wasted if you don't go ahead with what's booked. Do you feel the same angst with your orienteering competitions? Can you not go with the flow for a while and just enjoy your swimming? You have years and years to do this. If it doesn't work out this time and the logistics make no sense, maybe step back from it for a while and just swim for the joy of it, without worrying about timetables, speed, training and such.

    My joy ended when COVID restrictions were set which made me unable to do my speed training in a cold outdoor pool, as my only focus then was to get my speed up in order to catch up my friends and idols. (no one is willing to swim with me for long because I'm not fast enough - 1 hour difference over 15 km)

    It's not only open water swimming for me. I was working towards running a marathon early 2020 and now I no longer run. And I'm finding it hard to have a comeback in my orienteering - my sense of maps are mostly lost after a year without it, and I have serious doubt if I can get back to my 2019 level in this year.

    Now I'm planning to move to a place which is near the biggest job market in the UK, half an hour to the second-busiest international airport in the UK, and near the largest pool in UK (i.e. good for pool swimming), but it is not on the coast that doing sea swimming regularly will no longer be possible. Therefore I'm considering moving to competitive pool swimming afterwards. If I need to get back to sea swimming I will need to move to a coastal city for a few years to get back my acclimation and rough water experience (there are no metropolitan cities on the whole coastline of the UK), which will be hard to do as I progress in my career.

    @bruno said:

    I honestly think you should switch to triathlon. With the $$ cost of a Channel Swim you can buy a couple of really fancy bikes. And you'll only have to endure 1h of swimming at the most, for an Iron Man. Rewards come easier when running and cycling, you just need to be fit - which you obviously are, already.

    My plan was to start triathlon in 2020. Because of COVID closures I had no chance to do that.

    As it has been said so many times, marathon swimming is a journey. If it does not bring you joy, what's the point? Hopefully in a few years you'll understand. The good news is that it will never be too late to resume.

    My plan could bring me joy however because of COVID closures I couldn't follow it. And I won't have another chance in life to execute that plan again (because it involved moving from Hong Kong to Europe, which is a one-way movement for my career development).

    The only point now for me to do it is because, as it can't be postponed to 2022, it will be much more harder if I do it in a later year because I will need to start my training from 0 swim fitness, which means 2-3 years of training time and another half a year out of work, while my current situation means I'm 1 year from being ready for it. Squeezing 1-year worth of training in half a year is easier to restarting 2 years of training without any swim fitness and arranging half a year out of work in the season leading to my attempt.

  • abbygirlroseabbygirlrose Los Angeles and Palo Alto, CASenior Member

    My plan could bring me joy however because of COVID closures I couldn't follow it. And I won't have another chance in life to execute that plan again (because it involved moving from Hong Kong to Europe, which is a one-way movement for my career development).

    @miklcct I really think you need to focus on FINDING joy or CHOOSING joy in your training, rather than expecting a "perfect" plan to get you there. For me, enjoyment is all about outlook and mental toughness. Whenever I arrive at the beach and the weather is bad or the water is cold, my mantra is "I choose to be here, I choose to do this." Saying this reminds me to choose enjoyment.

    KatieBunLakeBaggerevmoj9swimCopelj26CazzwimSoloIronMikeMLambyflystormsStLucia_Channelwendyv34
  • musclewhale89musclewhale89 Alberta, CanadaMember

    @miklcct "As long as you accept that your dream might not go exactly as you plan, you will still feel fulfilled by the pursuit of your dream. So always go after whatever you want to do." -Tom Segura

    I think this is very true. Maybe you are too young to realize this because you seem very structured and if things don't go exactly as you planned it ruins your whole idea of "success".

    If you have a dream to complete O7 or other channel swims, you should pursue that. I have a lofty goal and a timeline but with COVID, I've had to readjust and my goal might take me an extra year or two to accomplish and it might look slightly different how I get there but my pursuit of that goal is what fulfills me.

    curlyKatieBunCopelj26SoloIronMike
  • AnthonyMcCarleyAnthonyMcCarley Berwyn, PACharter Member
    edited March 2021

    @bruno said: You should re-watch RIO https://forum.marathonswimmers.org/discussion/2161/rio-new-marathon-swimming-documentary , specially from minute 29.30 when @AnthonyMcCarley talks about re-evaluate your goals, re-assess if you are doing it for the right reasons, what you are missing by stubbornly sticking to your initial idea."

    @bruno, Thank you - you made my day much better. I appreciate you taking the time to watch the film. Thank you.

  • boobooabooboobooaboo Seattle, WA, United StatesNew Member

    @miklcct said:
    My bigger goal is very clear - to become competitive in 10 - 25 km marathon swimming races at a high level (e.g. at a county or regional level)

    Well...that's not going to happen until you stop making excuses and put in the work. At this point, I'm agreeing with others. Find something you enjoy and go after that! It seems like you are making excuses to justify to yourself as to why you are not achieving your goals. There's nothing wrong with failing, as long as you learn from it! I always learn more from failures than from my successes.

    IronMikecurlyCazzwim
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    @miklcct, you are/were competitive at the national level in Orienteering. Why not be happy with that? Just because you're national level in one sport doesn't mean you can be competitive, even at county or region, in another, especially one so vastly different. Just enjoy, brother!

    Cazzwim

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    Thank you all for your replies. I have just decided my future roadmap. I'll get to Bournemouth first, and I'll find a job in London, stating my availability from October, and move back to London after my attempt and start training for competitive pool swimming and also triathlons. As there aren't good OW opportunities in London and it's far away from the coast, I will no longer do marathon swimming (especially those in the sea) by then, and will consider again when I save enough to buy a flat / house in Bournemouth (which I will live in when I am training for channel swimming, and for lease in other times).

    Channel swimming is expensive, combined with the cost to make an emigration (the visa fee itself is already as expensive as a Channel swim), I'm now relying on debt to finance my move from Hong Kong to the UK. I will need to spend about £21k in my initial six months, including visa fees, application fees, moving and living expenses, my Channel swim, my trip to a race postponed from 2020 to 2021, and also my trip as a national representative in TrailO. After this year, when I get back into my career, it will take me at least 5 years to be in a financial position to leave London, move to a seaside place to train, and chunk out a few more channels.

    If I am unfortunate that I fail to reach France after I departed England, that will be my end of channel swimming career and I will never swim any channels in solo in my later life, unless in a race.

    @abbygirlrose said:
    @miklcct I really think you need to focus on FINDING joy or CHOOSING joy in your training, rather than expecting a "perfect" plan to get you there. For me, enjoyment is all about outlook and mental toughness. Whenever I arrive at the beach and the weather is bad or the water is cold, my mantra is "I choose to be here, I choose to do this." Saying this reminds me to choose enjoyment.

    I'm no longer finding any joy in my training process because I couldn't follow what I have planned. I thought it would be a fun once-of-a-lifetime thing to do in a working holiday. My enjoyment comes from the satisfaction from reaching milestones in my training progress, and from the act of swimming from a piece of land to another. It is no longer a once-of-a-lifetime thing to do because I am emigrating to the UK permanently and I can do it whenever I want.

    The pool closure order in Hong Kong has expired yesterday after being effective for the whole winter season. Despite it's not at an appropriate temperature now (it's now 27°C while I should train in 16-20°C to have maximum intensity for hours), I still got my 1500 time 2 minutes faster than pre-COVID. This has proven that I will not need to make up my missed pool training after I get to the UK, but I am still not happy. However my rectal temperature has raised to 37.2°C after I get out, which means the pool is really too hot for intense training and I'll probably get heat exhaustion if I stay for another hour or two.

    @musclewhale89 said:
    I think this is very true. Maybe you are too young to realize this because you seem very structured and if things don't go exactly as you planned it ruins your whole idea of "success".

    If you have a dream to complete O7 or other channel swims, you should pursue that. I have a lofty goal and a timeline but with COVID, I've had to readjust and my goal might take me an extra year or two to accomplish and it might look slightly different how I get there but my pursuit of that goal is what fulfills me.

    How can you readjust your plan? I can't adjust my Channel slot even with COVID restrictions because no pilots are having any availability in 2022, and some even no longer take any new bookings.

    @boobooaboo said:

    @miklcct said:
    My bigger goal is very clear - to become competitive in 10 - 25 km marathon swimming races at a high level (e.g. at a county or regional level)

    Well...that's not going to happen until you stop making excuses and put in the work. At this point, I'm agreeing with others. Find something you enjoy and go after that! It seems like you are making excuses to justify to yourself as to why you are not achieving your goals. There's nothing wrong with failing, as long as you learn from it! I always learn more from failures than from my successes.

    I'm willing to put in the work as exactly I planned right from the beginning and I won't make any excuses. I'll just follow my plan. I'll not allow myself any failure in channel swimming (exception can be given to channels which have low number of successes and established only recently, such as the 20 km North Channel route), especially the English Channel, after reading that Chloë has made all her 30+ single crossings in all conditions without a single failure. A failure in the English Channel will mean I am a bad swimmer.

    @IronMike said:
    @miklcct, you are/were competitive at the national level in Orienteering. Why not be happy with that? Just because you're national level in one sport doesn't mean you can be competitive, even at county or region, in another, especially one so vastly different. Just enjoy, brother!

    One of my life goals is to become a high-level sportsman in 2 different unrelated sports at the same time (it is not particularly astonishing if my achievements in different sports are separated by a decade). I think it's time for me to conclude and go on, as I think marathon swimming is not my best fit.

  • jendutjendut Charter Member

    A failure in the English Channel will mean I am a bad swimmer.

    Sigh.

    akswimKatieBunCazzwimcurlyJSwimSoloCopelj26swimfreeordieminawendyv34gregoc
  • KatieBunKatieBun CornwallSenior Member
    edited April 2021

    "A failure in the English Channel will mean I am a bad swimmer."

    Pardon me, Michael, but this statement is complete tosh and pretty insulting to some excellent swimmers who have had bad days out there.

    CazzwimcurlyJSwimSoloCopelj26swimfreeordieIronMikeminaMLambyevmogregoc
  • brunobruno Barcelona (Spain)Senior Member

    @miklcct said:
    A failure in the English Channel will mean I am a bad swimmer.

    This stupid thought is what makes you a bad swimmer.

    CazzwimcurlyCopelj26IronMikeminawendyv34gregoc
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    @miklcct said:
    I think it's time for me to conclude and go on, as I think marathon swimming is not my best fit.

    Hey cool. You just "hit the wall". Now let's see what you do about it.

    SoloCazzwimabbygirlrosemiklcctIronMike
  • abbygirlroseabbygirlrose Los Angeles and Palo Alto, CASenior Member

    @miklcct said:
    My enjoyment comes from the satisfaction from reaching milestones in my training progress, and from the act of swimming from a piece of land to another.

    Michael, have you ever tried setting imaginary milestones? For example, when I do a long swim, each time a half hour elapses and I get to a feed, that is a success. I think you need to strike a different balance between getting overwhelmed by the big picture and stuck in the weeds with the details.

    KatieBunCazzwimIronMikeminaevmowendyv34
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber
    edited April 2021

    @KatieBun said:
    "A failure in the English Channel will mean I am a bad swimmer."

    Pardon me, Michael, but this statement is complete tosh and pretty insulting to some excellent swimmers who have had bad days out there.

    I'm sorry if this insults anyone. In fact I'm annoyed by Chloe who not only do every single crossing perfectly (this is good), but also request exemption to leave Australia under border closure law rather than challenging it against the constitution because it is a blatant violation of a fundamental human right recognised in the world, the freedom to leave any country, and to return to your own (this is really bad).

    I wrote this statement solely because of Chloe's ability to swim 30+ singles without a single failure despite around 70% success rate in general in swimming the Channel (i.e. 1 failure every 3-4 attempts).

    @curly said:

    @miklcct said:
    I think it's time for me to conclude and go on, as I think marathon swimming is not my best fit.

    Hey cool. You just "hit the wall". Now let's see what you do about it.

    Sure, will do. Will keep my blog updated to let everyone know.

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    @miklcct said:
    I wrote this statement solely because of Chloe's ability to swim 30+ singles without a single failure despite around 70% success rate in general in swimming the Channel (i.e. 1 failure every 3-4 attempts).

    Chloe is a professional. She's concentrated on one sport. It is unrealistic of you to compare yourself to her. That's like a beginner orienteer (like yours truly) comparing themselves to you, a national-level orienteer. Good God get over it and just enjoy. Or quit and try something else, for God's sake. Ugh.

    CazzwimminaevmoKatieBunwendyv34

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • I know how can be fix all!
    On my opinion decision is only one! Find a girl and get marriage!
    This chanel problems will be nothing after that!)
    When u look back and remember for u chanel drama u will only smiling!
    Good luck

    evmomiklcctLakeBagger
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @Openh2o said:
    I know how can be fix all!
    On my opinion decision is only one! Find a girl and get marriage!
    This chanel problems will be nothing after that!)
    When u look back and remember for u chanel drama u will only smiling!
    Good luck

    I also want to find a girl. I met one last year. We came out for a few times already to swim but she terminated our relationship. I can no longer find another one who's willing to swim with me for a whole day and support my channel journey.

    Can you teach me how to find a girl?

  • MLambyMLamby Senior Member

    I'm starting to wonder if this is all just a "bit." Just someone entertaining themselves?

    curlyflystormswendyv34gregoc
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    @MLamby said:
    I'm starting to wonder if this is all just a "bit." Just someone entertaining themselves?

    Yep I've had the same thought on more than one occasion. I have to admit these threads entertain me as well.

    MLambywendyv34
  • musclewhale89musclewhale89 Alberta, CanadaMember

    @MLamby said:
    I'm starting to wonder if this is all just a "bit." Just someone entertaining themselves?

    That would make this easier to digest, unfortunately I don't think that is the case.

    MLambyCazzwim
  • CazzwimCazzwim UK.New Member
    edited April 2021

    @MLamby said:
    I'm starting to wonder if this is all just a "bit." Just someone entertaining themselves?

    There have been similar threads on Facebook, hopefully he is now on the right tracks to achieving his dreams.

    Openh2o
  • KarenTKarenT Charter Member

    A good start would be to stop talking about women as ‘girls’.

    evmoLakeBaggerMLambyabbygirlroseSwimmersuzKatieBunkejoyceIronMikecurlyCazzwimwendyv34gregocflystormssosophiaphiadc_in_sf
  • swimmer25kswimmer25k Charter Member

    Openh2oCazzwim
  • StephenStephen UKMember

    @miklcct is earnest about his goals. He’s a very technical young man who finds much comfort in routine and often struggles to ‘read the room’.

    The necessity to deal with the unexpected in our sport causes him extreme anxiety, yet still he persists.

    The mental game is one with which we all wrestle - I look forward to seeing this swimmer overcome his demons..

    LakeBaggermiklcctSolososophiaphia
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