Low Carb/Keto adapted swimming

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  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    Congrats @MvG and thanks for the write-up.

    DanSimonelliMvG

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • michael_millermichael_miller Minneapolis, MNMember

    This conversation thread has been helpful for me - thank you all. There is no 'one size fits all' approach with diets but it is a starting point for understanding what works for an individual. I took Dan's advice and read the 'Art and Science' book and also purchased a portable monitor (Abbot Precision Xtra), having used it all of four times this year to get a reading of glucose and keytones.

    Here is a summary of three of those readings immediately after swims of various durations.

    Ketosis Chart with readings

    I'm pretty sure that I would have had gastric distress if there would have been a sugary type feed for the 12 1/2 hour swim. I think I've had fat burning capability for backcountry hiking/camping trips some years ago, but this ability to apparently tap into the fat stores for energy for endurance swimming has made it all the more interesting. I hope to be able to recreate this 'Optimal Ketone Zone' at will in the future. Here's me, a bit loopy and happy at the end of end wet, at 1.6 millimolar keytones:

    IronMikeDanSimonelliMvGJBirrrd
  • michael_millermichael_miller Minneapolis, MNMember

    IMG_0099 resized

    IronMikeDanSimonelli
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    @michael_miller, what did you eat/drink during end wet? (If you wrote this up already somewhere and I missed it, please direct me.)

    DanSimonelli

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • michael_millermichael_miller Minneapolis, MNMember
    edited August 2018

    IronMike said:
    @michael_miller, what did you eat/drink during end wet? (If you wrote this up already somewhere and I missed it, please direct me.)

    @IronMike , resurfacing here. I spent a few hours the morning after the ENDWET swim writing down as much info as I could remember, then never condensed it until last week. I have a Catalina Channel attempt on Sunday night and we'll see how repeatable this is... For the quantity of liquid feed, I inventoried the bottles afterward and was surprised that the average volume consumed per 30 minutes was quite low.

  • michael_millermichael_miller Minneapolis, MNMember
    edited August 2018

    IronMike said: @michael_miller, what did you eat/drink during end wet? (If you wrote this up already somewhere and I missed it, please direct me.) @IronMike , resurfacing here. I spent a few hours the morning after the ENDWET swim writing down as much info as I could remember, then never condensed it until last week. I have a Catalina Channel attempt on Sunday night and we'll see how repeatable this is... For the quantity of liquid feed, I inventoried the bottles afterward and was surprised that the average volume consumed per 30 minutes was quite low.
    END WET FEED NOTES

    IronMikeDanSimonelli
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    Thanks @michael_miller. Appreciate the detail.

    michael_miller

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • minamina Newton, MAMember

    I'm new to keto (~4 mos), really enjoying how my body is responding to it, but still trying to figure out how to balance with endurance/high intensity exercise in general.

    I had been about 3 months in at <25g carb/day just before Boston Light and was nervous about feeds and the duration, partly because I was undertrained (I took a month off of exercise when starting low carb) and partly because I wasn't sure how truly fat adapted I was, and partly because I hadn't been training with anything other than water, Ultima electros, or most often nothing at all since I wasn't training much past the 2 hour mark and without a bottle tow.

    I went with a two eve carb up to try and prep my stomach for being able to handle CarboPro horizontally (I've had trouble in the past), which I think kinda backfired - I just felt sluggish leading up to the event - but the day of was pretty good energy. I had a good breakfast (without carbs) and really thought I might be able to swim the 5 hours without anything beyond electros and water.

    I wish I had notes from my crew about nutrition, but I know my first feed was at the 2 hour mark (I kept waving off the crew because it didn't seem necessary) which was just electros, and from there on, I didn't really need to stop right on the 30 (usually alt btw electros and water), or take any carbs until well after hour 3. I think I probably only consumed about 200-250 calories for 5 hrs (1 gel, 1-2 stops with CP). If the water temp hadn't dropped back again below 60, I'm not sure I would've needed it, but I find my cold tolerance is going down a bit without carbs and thought it might help.

    So a few questions: (and apologies if I missed some of this in the prev conversation ... this is a long thread and I'm trying to go back and review!)

    I've read a fair amount about carb-ing up before an event -- is it worth it? Did I just pick the wrong stuff to eat or can more than a couple days be necessary to readjust? Or do you not bother and just stay low carb up to event day?

    When you get to a long training or event day (3+ hrs), do you ever ditch the carbs entirely?

    Is UCAN really any better or worse than another carb drink if you're going to burn all of those carbs during the event anyway?

    Does anyone else find that their cold water tolerance is going down? Or did you regain that after an adjustment period?

    (reading further back on the thread now....)

    DanSimonelli
  • JSwimJSwim western Maryland, USSenior Member

    @mina You'll probably get a number of answers to your questions. Two general things that I think are very important: you'll have to see what works for you in particular events under particular conditions AND "metabolic flexibility" (IMHO) is really the key.

    It helps to keep in mind the basic principal that if your insulin level is too high at any particular time, your body cannot switch over to using fat for fuel. That's where UCAN can come in. It's carbs, but slow release ones, so insulin levels shouldn't spike. That means that you are more likely to be able to access your fat stores "soon" after (or even while) you consume UCAN.

    If you're insulin resistant or Type 2 diabetic, your insulin levels will go up more than someone who is more metabolically healthy, so what "soon" is depends on you. On the flip side, an athlete who is insulin efficient may be able to consume lots of carb drinks and gels and have their insulin levels stay low,. They can burn fat whenever they need to to keep up with their energy demands. That's "metabolic flexibility". The other very important part to metabolic flexibility is that your body has to burn fat regularly, so that it has the appropriate enzymes & hormones at the ready. An insulin efficient person who rarely relies on fat for fuel may "hit the wall" when they run out of glucose for their muscles while their body takes time to ramp up production of the things it needs to switch to using fat.

    Can you ditch carbs entirely? Yes, if you're fat adapted or metabolically flexible. But generally both types of fuel will make you feel optimal in long (4+ hour) events.

    I haven't found that my cold tolerance has suffered from skipping high carb feeds. I have started to feel chilly near the end of long events if I eat too little. If you've lost weight when you changed your diet, it could be the loss of bioprene, not what you're eating.

    minaDanSimonellipavlicovJBirrrd

    Life begins at the end of your comfort zone. --Neale Donald Walsch

  • minamina Newton, MAMember
    edited September 2018

    JSwim said:
    It helps to keep in mind the basic principal that if your insulin level is too high at any particular time, your body cannot switch over to using fat for fuel. That's where UCAN can come in. It's carbs, but slow release ones, so insulin levels shouldn't spike. That means that you are more likely to be able to access your fat stores "soon" after (or even while) you consume UCAN.

    Thank you! I don't think I quite understood this point, so I appreciate the explanation. I'll have to give UCAN a shot.

    If you're insulin resistant or Type 2 diabetic, your insulin levels will go up more than someone who is more metabolically healthy, so what "soon" is depends on you.

    Part of my reason for starting LC was to stave off joining the long line of obese, T2D women on my mother's side of the family, so I'm really curious about measuring "metabolic flexibility" to be able to see gains there. I think I need to read the Art and Science book and then check out michael miller's posts again.

    I haven't found that my cold tolerance has suffered from skipping high carb feeds. I have started to feel chilly near the end of long events if I eat too little. If you've lost weight when you changed your diet, it could be the loss of bioprene, not what you're eating.

    >

    I'd love the loss of bioprene to be it, but I'm really only about 12# down - a win, but sadly shouldn't be enough to change my cold water tolerance, I'm afraid!

    DanSimonelli
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    I'm low-carb ("not no-carb," as my wife likes to put it) and definitely not keto adapted, at all. My concern last year before a big swim was the effect on my body of going from <100g of carbs per day to all of a sudden a bunch of carbs the night before and day of the swim. I solved this by finding low-carb treats to get me through 7-9 hours of swimming. I ate babybel cheeses, pepperoni slices and (here come the carbs) packets of Justin's PB. I was certainly tired towards the end, but I think that was mostly due to so long horizontal and not to lack of calories.

    @mina, good luck!

    DanSimonelli

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • minamina Newton, MAMember
    edited September 2018

    @IronMike - Swimming and only stopping to have my kayaker/crew feed me cheese sounds like the best day ever. :)

    DanSimonelliIronMikeMLamby
  • michael_millermichael_miller Minneapolis, MNMember

    @mina Here is an updated chart since my July post on actual ketone levels immediately after long swims in which I used mainly starch and electrolytes to power my way through. I wish I had an identical twin who would have a diet of potato chips and high carbs, swimming along side me for comparison on just how much benefit comfort wise and performance wise it is to use things like superstarch.

    Keytones after Swimming as of Oct 2018

    IronMikemina
  • michael_millermichael_miller Minneapolis, MNMember
    edited November 2018

    And here is my actual feed plan for the 13hr6min catalina channel crossing this past labor day weekend. An improvement for me would have been to to eliminate the solid food, reduce the amount of protein powder and electrolyte.

    Consumed calories during the event: 1225 cal (superstarch) + 408 cal (p2life nutriboost) + 100 cal (half of a protein bar which was the only solid food I ate and really didn't need to eat in retrospect) + 17 cal (electrolyte mix) = 1,750 calories total

    Calories burned SWAG (Wild Guess): 600-900 cal/hr (68 deg water) * 13 hours = Say 10,000 calories.

    Assuming 2,000 calories internal stores available at the start (glycogen), fat burning produced the rest of the calories.

    So in very rough terms, 10,000 calories burned less 2,000 from my feeds, less 2,000 from glycogen stores suggests 6,000 calories were burned from my fat stores. Are others out there 60% powered by fat?

    One gram of fat yields 9 calories, so if my above assumptions are fairly accurate that implies that I burned 6000/9 = 666 grams of fat which is 0.66kg*2.2lb/kg = roughly 1 1/2 lbs, basically exhaled as carbon dioxide and water vapor...

    Swimming in waters significantly colder than 68 deg F for this duration of time is the unknown for me, but would require much more 'fat burning'.

    I understand there is another topic/thread for feeds; don't know if this post can cross reference but at least this is a start of condensing the information from my scrap notes and files.

    Appreciate any corrections to above assumptions; I dissected my feeds quantities since this is always a mysterious aspect of training.

    Lastly, my quantity of sugar (as fructose in the protein power I added) totaled 41 grams, basically equivalent to one can of Coke.

    Catalina Actual Feed Plan cr

    IronMikeSpacemanspiffminaJBirrrd
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    @michael_miller

    You should also include your hydration, water consumed.
    I know we focused on that more on the second half of your swim.

    My hypothesis continues to show anecdotal confirmation from observing/crewing for swims that hydration is more important then calories during an endurance event.

    aafairmanKatieBunJSwimIronMikeJBirrrd
  • MLambyMLamby Senior Member

    This is all so head spinning. When doing longer(5k to 20k) swims, I only consume a mixture of gatorade/water/Clif Gel. Taking in solids makes me nauseated. I take in about 20 ounces every 30 to 45 minutes. When training, I can do 5k with no water or feed of any kind, but my energy does drop a little at around the 2+ mile mark. I definitely swim better when taking in lots of carbs before and after swims, but I can swim 5 to 10k a day and not lose any weight. To lose weight, I need to do low carb. When I do low carb and swim, my energy is low and I get headaches. I guess I need to just choose swimming effectively over having a nice physique. :) I sure wish there was a "magic bullet." :)

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    MLamby said:
    When I do low carb and swim, my energy is low and I get headaches. I guess I need to just choose swimming effectively over having a nice physique. :) I sure wish there was a "magic bullet." :)

    This happened to me when I started low-carb, but the sluggishness goes away after a week or so. But boy oh boy, that first week! Difficult.

    MLamby

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member
    edited December 2018

    There is a way to minimize or even eliminate this “sluggishness” transition.
    Increase electrolytes during, mainly sodium and magnesium, as I recall (specifics are in “Art & Science of Low Carb...”)
    It worked for me and others.
    I didn’t notice anything during initial or later transitions (I’ve been in and out of NK many times during the last 5 years.

    I would also suggest that “headaches” are likely due to being dehydrated along with electrolyte deficiency or imbalance.

    MLambyIronMike
  • michael_millermichael_miller Minneapolis, MNMember

    For my feed chart 5 posts above, I have a summary of the amount of fluids consumed; over the length of the swim intake averaged about 7 ounces per 30 minutes (1.25 gallons over the course of the swim). I don't have a stringent diet of any kind, but have increasing confidence that as long as I'm hydrated and have slow digesting superstarch in my stomach, my energy levels remain at a good steady level for endurance events. Last week after a biometric screening I went for a 2 hour continuous swim. I forgot to bring my feed bottle and had been fasting for the screening, so it made for an interesting comparison with regard to energy levels, and how your body responds.

    IronMikeMLamby
  • emkhowleyemkhowley Boston, MACharter Member

    Question for the other UCAN users in the group:

    I began using UCAN in 2014 with my Lake Pend Oreille swim--sports nutritionist and UCAN advocate Sunny Blende, was an integral component of my crew, and she turned me on to it. Though I'd always had what I thought were good results with CarboPro, I found that what I could do with UCAN was far superior and I've been a loyal user ever since.

    Since then, I'd done several other swims in pretty cold water and found that the optimal feed plan for me was 1/2 scoop of UCAN every 45 minutes. That's a little over half of what I think the manufacturers recommend, but with trial and error, that's what's seemed to work best for me.

    So here's the question: why then when I was in 68-73 degree water and air temps that started at 68 and went up to the mid-80s for the 24-mile Boston Light Triple last week did my feeds increase by about double? Was it a factor of the warm temps versus the much cooler water? 51 to 65 is more the normal water temp range for swims I undertake. Was it thirst masquerading as hunger? I had access to plain water at every feed and drank a lot of it as well, so I think this was a straight hunger question. Was it hormonal? (I've been having some, ahem, fluctuations in that area recently.) But I just keep coming back to the water temp since that was such a big difference from most of the other swims I've used UCAN on (save for that initial Pend Oreille swim in which conditions were remarkably similar to those we had in Boston on Friday and I took in feeds at about the same rate as I did on Friday.)

    Really curious to know whether anyone else has noticed a change in feed needs or levels of intake based on the temperature of the water--that seems to be really the only variable that makes sense here as to why I would have been taking in more nutrition than usual.

    Stop me if you've heard this one...
    A grasshopper walks into a bar...
    https://elainekhowley.com/

  • @emkhowley said:
    Question for the other UCAN users in the group:

    So here's the question: why then when I was in 68-73 degree water and air temps that started at 68 and went up to the mid-80s for the 24-mile Boston Light Triple last week did my feeds increase by about double?

    The increased in that you DRANK more at each stop? Or, you swam longer, so you needed a greater number of feeds than you thought you would, based on a pace estimation?

    Was it a factor of the warm temps versus the much cooler water? 51 to 65 is more the normal water temp range for swims I undertake. Was it thirst masquerading as hunger? I had access to plain water at every feed and drank a lot of it as well, so I think this was a straight hunger question.

    Down here (Alabama) we seldom have cool water this time of year to train in, let alone cold water. MOST of swims recently have been in 80+ degree water....rather like the instructional pool at my facility. And, as a daily thing, thirst can of course masquerade as hunger. So, this conclusion you have seems reasonable to me, based on my limited but geographically specific experience.

    This past weekend, about 2/3 of the way through my OWS swim, I noticed that I was starting to feel hungry.... but I also noticed that my mouth was a little pasty (lake swim, not salt water). So, I chugged a bit more on the next feed, and felt better. Then, in the car, downed my "extra" bottle as well as more fluid. Didn't have to pee until well after I got home. So, I'm going with thirst on that one.

    Was it hormonal? (I've been having some, ahem, fluctuations in that area recently.) But I just keep coming back to the water temp since that was such a big difference from most of the other swims I've used UCAN on (save for that initial Pend Oreille swim in which conditions were remarkably similar to those we had in Boston on Friday and I took in feeds at about the same rate as I did on Friday.)

    I'm also having hormonal fluctuations as they say....and, I don't notice that they particularly affect my thirst/hunger in the water. So, n=1 on that one.

    Really curious to know whether anyone else has noticed a change in feed needs or levels of intake based on the temperature of the water--that seems to be really the only variable that makes sense here as to why I would have been taking in more nutrition than usual.

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    Hi Elaine
    As you know I've been using ucan for a long time too, since meeting and being introduced to it by Peter Attia in 2013.
    I've used it ever since continually adjusting along the way (flavor, amount/concentration, amount per hour, augmented water, etc).

    Early on when I started going longer, per Peter's suggestion I switched to vanilla or chocolate (as they were the flavors with some protein) to stave off some hunger pangs I was getting after 4-5hrs.
    It worked.

    However, I haven't experienced or noticed what you are in warmer water than what you're normally in. But, I've felt the opposite to a small degree in colder than normal water temp swims for me.

    Hmmmm??? 🤔🧐

  • pavlicovpavlicov NYC USASenior Member

    In my experience, I need a bit more ucan in colder water and also need to add protein about 4h in. Is it possible that during your swim, you entered ketosis and start digesting ucan better?

    In any case, I am ucan ambassador and can supply you with modest (very modest, but better than poke in the eye) discount coupon. PM me if you are interested or want to discuss.

    If this post is not in accord with community standards, please delete.

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    Interesting new study in the British Dental Journal (I'll hold back the jokes): Extreme fitness rots the teeth, new study finds.

    "...a new study finds half of elite athletes have rotting teeth.

    "It found that 49.1 per cent had untreated tooth decay, with a large majority showing early signs of gum inflammation.

    "Almost a third - 32 per cent - reported that their oral health negatively impacted their training and performance."

    The group studied was 352 Olympic and pro athletes across 11 sports. The majority of the athletes had good dental habits to include twice-a-day brushing, daily flossing, no smoking, healthy diet and visits to the dentist. The one thing in common among them is "they use sports drinks, energy gels and bars frequently during training and competition."

    I wonder if the medium in which we train and compete helps wash the sugars off our teeth? (I'm using the cooperative, inclusive first person plural even though I don't use these products.)

    Discuss...

    DanSimonelli

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • JustadumguyJustadumguy United StatesNew Member

    If you're bathing your teeth in sugars constantly, you're going to have tooth and gum problems....

    IronMikeDanSimonelli
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    So I did an experiment.

    This past November I started to fall off the low-carb wagon. If someone brought holiday baked goods in to work, I had some. Before long, my adult kids came for the holidays and I ate whatever. Didn't care.

    I was reading about people doing the carnivore diet. Some were doing it for all of January. Figured I'd try it out, kind of a detox from my holiday crazy eating. I started 4 weeks ago yesterday.

    But prior to starting it, I did a fasting lipid panel. Here's my results after a 12h water-only fast (TC=total cholesterol; TG=triglycerides):

    TC: 264 TG: 92 HDL: 62 LDL: 181

    For comparison's sake, here's my older results:

    2010 (on typical, Mediterranean diet): TC: 227 TG: 125 HDL: 54 LDL: 152
    2012: TC: 230 TG: 101 HDL: 55 LDL: 154
    2014 (after about a year of LCHF): TC: 198 TG: 53 HDL: 62 LDL: 123
    2015 (Oct): TC: 212 TG: 91 HDL: 59 LDL: 135
    2016 (July) TC: 215 TG: 128 HDL: 58 LDL: 133
    2017 (Apr) TC: 229 TG: 82 HDL: 67 LDL: 146

    So for four weeks I only ate animal products. I had one "cheat" day where I drank two beers (work function) about a week ago. That's it. So here's today's results, also after a 12h water-only fast:

    TC: 304 TG: 169 HDL: 42 LDL: 228

    What the heck?!

    I think I'll go back to LCHF! No more carnivore for me. Tomorrow, a salad.

    DanSimonelliKatieBunMvGmina

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    @IronMike
    Good self-experiment 👍🏼

    IronMike
  • minamina Newton, MAMember

    @IronMike - so much for holiday DETOX!

    IronMike
  • Coach_HannahCoach_Hannah Southern CaliforniaMember
    edited June 2020
  • Again my gift for resurrecting old threads
    Has there been more real life examples with HFLC for distance swimming?
    @IronMike are you still subscribing to this?

    DanSimonelliIronMike
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    Yep, still doing dirty keto/LCHF. So far so good. Blood panels are great. Also got a heart scan recently, the CAC (heart MRI) and got a zero. w00t!

    DanSimonelli

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • That is awesome to hear.
    As a carb junkie I am trying an experiment on my body for this month with LCHF to see what happens.

    DanSimonelliIronMike
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    @Nick_P
    It’s good to read up on transitioning into nutritional ketosis as there are some common pitfalls to try to avoid.
    👍🏼

    IronMikeNick_P
  • JustadumguyJustadumguy United StatesNew Member

    Exogenous ketones and mct oil are enormously helpful in avoiding the awful parts of keto transition.

    DanSimonelli
  • @DanSimonelli said:
    @Nick_P
    It’s good to read up on transitioning into nutritional ketosis as there are some common pitfalls to try to avoid.
    👍🏼

    Some of the side affects can be interesting. Thanks

    DanSimonelli
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