Low Carb/Keto adapted swimming

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Comments

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    Niek said:

    Niek said:
    Derailed father. No hug for the poor girl and also no more chips for her. X(

    Niek,
    The woman is the chiropractor/massage therapist and in the green jacket is my 19-year old son. This picture was about an hour or two into my swim! According to the observer, they both got lively after their naps.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    IronMike said:

    IronMike said:
    So, here they are. In 2010 I was about a year, year and a half "out" of being a pescovegetarian and eating meat. In 2013 I started LCHF:

    (TC=total cholesterol; TG: triglycerides; HDL: good cholesterol; LDL: bad)

    2010:
    TC: 227
    TG: 125
    HDL: 54 (w00t!)
    LDL: 152 (yuck)

    2012:
    TC: 230
    TG: 101 (getting better)
    HDL: 55
    LDL: 154 (oy!)

    2014 (after about a year of LCHF):
    TC: 198 (w00t!)
    TG: 53 (hell's yeah!)
    HDL: 62 (boo-yah!)
    LDL: 123 (oh-yeah!)

    OK, so just had to have another blood panel. Since getting here to Kyrgyzstan 18 months ago I have NOT been following LCHF. Still lower-carb than in 2010 and 2012 before I ever heard of this, but as you can see from the numbers, I'm no longer at ~100g of carbs a day. :(

    2015 (Oct):
    TC: 212
    TG: 91
    HDL: 59
    LDL: 135

    This week I've made a concerted effort to go lower carb. My breakfast has changed from one hashbrown and two sausage links to three sausage links. And when I eat a hamburger for lunch, I remove the top (huge, puffy) bun. But it is difficult here, Kyrgyzstan is carb-crazy (and has stunted growth as a reflection of their nutritional ignorance) and I have trouble saying no to some of their national dishes, like plov and lagman.

    OK, just got my panel back again. I took it today because my wife leaves Kyrgyzstan on Monday and I'll be on my own for a month. I know how weak I am re: pizza, plov, lagman, those sorts of thing. So here are the numbers:

    2016 (July)
    TC: 215
    TG: 128 (eek)
    HDL: 58
    LDL: 133

    So not too bad, although I'd love that Triglycerides number back down to 2014 levels.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • JBirrrdJBirrrd MarylandSenior Member

    Pretty excited about my evolution in this keto journey. I posted above about using UCAN for GI distress a couple years ago. At that time I was most definitely NOT interested in changing my everyday diet. Total carb addict and incurable sweet tooth...me.
    However, this summer, I noticed that I was becoming ravenously hungry 2 hours into training swims even while taking in my typical UCAN on the top of the hour and UCAN Hydrate on the bottom. Someone recommended I add protein so I made the switch to choc flavored UCAN which has protein. Went back to the company's website to research and picked up on the terms metabolic efficiency, keto-adaptation and LCHF diets. I wasn't ready before, but now my interest was peaked. Started reading & watching everything on the topic.
    6 weeks ago I jumped on the bandwagon and went all in, total cold turkey on eliminating all sweets, breads, pasta, high carb vegetables and fruits. Went into ketosis fairly quickly. (I test w/ the urine strips) Before training swims I drink 1 packet of UCAN (200 cal) and notice that I no longer need to feed during my swims (anywhere from 2 up to 8 hours), just hydrate. I am in full fat burn mode and it feels incredible. Hunger pangs while swimming have completely disappeared.

    I swam for 11 and a half hours at Deep Creek Lake in western Maryland yesterday, an 18 mile marathon swim. I drank only one pack of UCAN 30 mins prior and another 5 hours in, only b/c my crew insisted. To be honest, I did have an issue with my stomach I believe b/c I ate scrambled eggs 1 hour before the swim. They never digested and felt heavy in my stomach until they came up 7 hours into the swim (along w/ most of my last feed. I figure I swam over 11 hours on approx. 300 calories of UCAN.
    Someone above questioned the possibility of a keto-adapted swimmer doing a channel swim sans feeds. I now do believe it possible. There is no one more surprised than me that keto-adaptation actually works or that I was able to give up my beloved carbs. In addition I've lost 12 pounds (not my intention as I was already kind of lean). I do not count calories and eat a very satisfying LCHF diet. I am sold. Highly recommend becoming keto-adapted if you are an endurance athlete or trying to lose weight.

    evmoJSwimIronMikeDanSimonelli
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    JBirrrd said:
    Someone above questioned the possibility of a keto-adapted swimmer doing a channel swim sans feeds. I now do believe it possible. There is no one more surprised than me that keto-adaptation actually works or that I was able to give up my beloved carbs. In addition I've lost 12 pounds (not my intention as I was already kind of lean). I do not count calories and eat a very satisfying LCHF diet. I am sold. Highly recommend becoming keto-adapted if you are an endurance athlete or trying to lose weight.

    Welcome to the revolution. I still laugh to myself every morning when I have bacon with a side of bacon. I'm not completely keto adapted, and don't swim near as long as you, but I believe in the diet. I swam over 6 hours on just liquids and some salami and cheese an hour prior to the swim.

    You should check your blood panel. That's really revealing. That's what opened my eyes to this diet. To be able to eat so much "bad" stuff, yet have my cholesterol go down (LDL down HDL up) and my triglycerides go down, love it!

    DanSimonelliJBirrrd

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member
    edited September 2016

    @JBirrrd
    Janet, thanks for reminding me to post my latest experience to share here.
    And to connect about your Deep Creek swim, congrats! :)

    I'm still here in Dover basking in the sunlight, literally (it's been unusually beautiful weather here for weeks) and figuratively since my Aug 25 EC swim.

    My swim didn't go quite as planned...and I know that my being keto-adapted was the sole reason I was able to persevere through the dregs of nearly my whole swim being excessively sick from boat exhaust fumes!

    My nausea started noticeably effecting me at 2hr feed when I didn't feel like taking what would've been my first UCAN feed.
    I spent the next 10+ hours in this sad state, taking occasional sips of UCAN, subsequently giving most of it back, but always making myself drink my water at each 30min feed!
    So, in total I maybe ingested 50g of UCAN (much of which was spewed), so perhaps 100-200 carb calories in 14+ hrs.

    And the real test came at about hour 13 when Capt asked if I could pick it up for next 30 min to get inside the changing tide East of Cap Gris Nez.
    I was feeling a bit better from the nausea and pushed for the full 30min picking up my stroke rate 10-15%!
    After 30min they asked if I could continue for another 30min, and I did!

    And that did it. I was able to cruise into a nice sandy finish (I'll tell the one fkn rock story another time! ;) ) in Wissant just West of the Cap.

    So, having taken almost no carbs, or keeping them down, and staying hydrated for 14+ hrs, I had the energy to tap to go hard for 60min at the end!

    There you have it!
    \m/

    JBirrrdloneswimmerIronMikeSharkosteffie
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    @MarkSheridan

    Mark has a good Lake swim story too!
    :)

  • JBirrrdJBirrrd MarylandSenior Member

    Bumping this thread to revisit the keto conversation. I finally bit the bullet and changed my daily diet to LCHF. Keto-adapted for almost 9 months now. Interested in hearing what other fat-adapted marathon swimmers are currently doing. Particularly interested in knowing how long (time-wise, & distance) a swimmer can go on zero calorie intake, hydrating w/ supplemental electrolytes. Also interested in how it affected your performance in cooler water if you dropped significant body weight. Still using UCAN, but at 17 net carbs/scoop, hard for me to wrap my head around it not kicking an athlete out of ketosis. Got an answer to this question from a UCAN rep about its low glycemic index, but it still doesn't make sense to me.
    Keto swimmers...let's hear from you.

    IronMikeDanSimonelli
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    This is not an answer to @JBirrrd's questions, but since this thread has appeared again, wanted to offer a recommendation for LCHF food:

    Epic bars. They are like power bars, but mostly meat. Mostly protein. For the most part, low card. I'm eating the Venison one now, and looking at it's nutritional info, I can tell you it is 80 calories, 2g of carbs, 12g protein, 3g fat. The flavor is awesome, sea salt and pepper. I keep them at work as a few of my work colleagues just love to bake and are WEEKLY (yes, weekly) bringing in one or two cakes, couple dozen cookies and brownies. Every. Freaking. Week.

    I started with Epic's variety pack, picked a few I really liked (Venison, Chicken Sriracha, Uncured Bacon) and bought boxes of them. When I'm peckish, I grab one instead of those damn yummy-looking brownies.

    Highly recommended. Oh, and I don't work for Epic, nor do I get any sort of benefit for recommending them.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    JBirrrd said:
    Still using UCAN, but at 17 net carbs/scoop, hard for me to wrap my head around it not kicking an athlete out of ketosis.

    "17 net carbs/scoop"?
    "kicking an athlete out of ketosis." ??

    Hi Janet,
    As you know I've been using UCAN for several years now, and I've gradually reduced the amount of carb calories per feed and compensated with water.

    (I don't believe in adding electrolytes during a swim, at least colder water swim; might do so in warm water swim.
    I think it's paramount to stay electrolyte replenished and balanced between workouts. I don't believe it's feasible to do during a swim. More so, I think it has potential to cause imbalance during swim.
    Also, the UCAN electrolytes have very small amounts of each. I've been using Ultima Replenisher, suggested by Elaine Howley).

    Anyway, if I wasn't convinced before, I'm absolutely convinced from my EC swim last year!
    I'm certain I wouldn't have finished if it weren't for my being keto-adapted!

    I got sick from the boat diesel fumes from the very start (coming up to boat at the start, boat adjusting, me taking full inhale of exhaust! And continued intermittent exposure...as much as tried to stay away).
    By second feed stop I was feeling it and puking.

    I ended up only taking in one bottle of mixed UCAN (18-20oz; 5-600ml), but sudsequently vomiting it all up. So, basically zero calories over 14+ hours!
    However, I forced myself to drink water at every 30 min "feed" stop, knowing that I had to at least stay hydrated.

    I plodded along at slow pace unable to push at all. Then, near the end and another tide change sweeping me passed Cap Griz Nez, Capt asked if I could pick up pace to get inside the cap. I was able to increase my pace, stroke rate up 10-15% for a first 30 min, and then they said I needed to do that again, and I continued for another 30min.

    So, for a full hour I pushed relatively hard, no carb calories at all.

    Only being keto-adapted could be the answer as to how I could muster that energy after 13hrs!

    @MarkSheridan can also attest to his experience and success with Swimming long while in nutritional ketosis.

    IronMikeJBirrrd
  • JBirrrdJBirrrd MarylandSenior Member

    Thanks @DanSimonelli. I had no idea that your EC crossing was completed basically on no feeds. And it sounds like you still were able to kick the power on toward the end. This gives me hope & resolve to try what I want to do. I was admittedly depleted at the end of my swim, but I was fairly new to keto at the time plus, well, I'm just not that strong a swimmer, so there's that too. As for electrolytes, I have to say supplementing did the job for me as it effectively stopped the cramping in my legs. It was warmer and fresh water.
    @IronMike, Thanks for the lead on those Epic bars. Agreed, good to have something LC & convenient on hand when there is a brownie emergency.

    DanSimonelliIronMike
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    edited May 2017

    OK, so my LCHF journey so far in Russia:

    Getting here I realized I'm in an office with well-minded people, but they all want me to get diabetes. Seriously, 2-3 times a week someone brings in some sort of baked good. Cookies, cakes, brownies. Every. Single. Week. And I am weak.

    But about two months ago my family and I went to the Bolshoi, and it was the first time I had worn a suit since getting here in August. Let's just say, I think the cleaners moved the buttons over a little. Very snug in the middle. The wife noticed.

    So I weighed myself. I don't usually do this, because, in general, I remain in the 178-185 range. Well, I weighed in at 190. I'd never been that heavy! And I didn't like it. So I did two things that day:

    • I thanked the lovely folks in my office who bake, but told them that from now on if they come back and offer me anything baked, I was gonna tell them to go take a flying leap; and
    • I cut off all treats.

    The first one was harder than the second. Truly these people are so sweet, and they are great bakers. But I just can't do it. The second wasn't as hard as I thought. Besides, I always preferred to drink my carbs anyway, so I now consider my beer with dinner as my treat. I, of course, still eat cake and ice cream at family birthdays. I'm not a monster, after all!

    Last week I had my blood panel taken for my annual physical. Not as bad as I thought, but not as good as I'd hoped. I have to remember it's only been two months and perhaps in another six months some of these numbers would be better. First, my past history:

    (TC=total cholesterol; TG: triglycerides; HDL: good cholesterol; LDL: bad)

    2010: TC: 227 TG: 125 HDL: 54 LDL: 152

    2012: TC: 230 TG: 101 HDL: 55 LDL: 154

    2014 (after about a year of LCHF): TC: 198 TG: 53 HDL: 62 LDL: 123

    2015 (Oct): TC: 212 TG: 91 HDL: 59 LDL: 135

    2016 (July) TC: 215 TG: 128 HDL: 58 LDL: 133

    That's the past. Here is today:
    2017 (Apr) TC: 229 TG: 82 HDL: 67 LDL: 146

    So, best HDL ever and second best TG in seven years. Now, to get the other numbers back to 2014 levels!

    DanSimonelli

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    Any of you folks managed to integrate broth into your feedings? Keep hot water in a thermos, add bouillon, some cold water, then drink? How would it work?

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    Haven't tried.

  • brunobruno Barcelona (Spain)Senior Member

    A few years ago I did a trail walking race: 80 km in 24 hours max. (it took me 20 hours). At the feeding points during the night they offered bouillon. Very bad idea: too salty, disgusting taste. Obviously it was made of cubes. The feeling of being thirsty lasted for a few hours.

    Perhaps good home made broth (with no much salt in it), where you can even blend some vegetables or chicken (sort of hot smoothie), would be OK.

    IronMike
  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member

    There's a broth mix called "Better Than Bullion" that I use for soups & stews, but haven't tried it while swimming. It comes in a small jar and has a pasty consistency. There are a ton of flavors, including several vegetarian. It's the most delicious and economical veggie broth I've found, much easier to store than the vacuum pack quarts. You can mix it to taste and it can be found a lots of grocery stores.

    IronMike

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

  • SydneDSydneD Senior Member

    I've used Miso Soup many times. Yummy!

    IronMike
  • JSwimJSwim western Maryland, USSenior Member

    I thought I’d report using KetoForce exogenous ketone salts
    as part of my feed plan at the 3 Rivers Marathon Swim (30 km in 10:06) in Pittsburgh last Saturday. I couldn’t find much on the web (or mention here at all) about how to use it during a long event.

    The highlights:

    I’ll definitely use it again. The positives are noticeable energy boost with no crash and the incorporated electrolytes meant only one minor calf cramp around 2 hours (of 10+). The large negative is that the taste is truly, truly awful, though it can be diluted and mixed to minimize that, and there are more palatable formulations.

    Background and warnings:

    Exogenous ketone salts taste bad because they are highly concentrated “salts” (KetoForce is sodium and potassium salts). Too much at a time, or over the course of a day WILL cause gastric problems and potentially worse things like electrolyte imbalance. Do some background reading before using these extensively, most especially if you’re diabetic.

    I chose KetoSports KetoForce because there are very few ingredients besides the ketone salts (water, citric acid and/or sodium hydroxide). Lately I’ve become sensitive to non-nutritive sweeteners including stevia and monk fruit, so the better tasting formulations weren’t an option unfortunately.

    I went through a 16 ounce bottle (16 doses) in the weeks before the 3RMS. The maximum recommended per day is 3 doses of 3 capfuls (3 cc) each for a total of 9 capfuls (9 cc). I never exceeded 2 cc’s at a time, or 6 cc’s in a day. My gastric distress was minimal and limited to the 1st trial day. I would take it as “shots” of 1-2 cc’s of KetoForce mixed with some lemon juice (recommended to counter the high alkalinity) and follow it with water. It was much much more pleasant with a squirt of MiO type water enhancer, and I’d recommend that if you can tolerate non-nutritive sweeteners.

    My 3RMS feed plan was to feed at 1:00, 2:00 then every :30 after that, alternating diluted plain UCan (with ginger and small amount of coconut water) and KetoForce shots (with coffee, maple syrup and lemon juice) with water chaser. That worked well until about 22 km (about 8 hours) into the swim. I am very motion sickness prone, and the last leg in the Allegheny River had more waves and chop from boat traffic than the other rivers. So I was nauseous, and once I barfed I didn’t feed anymore. (The last feed I skipped the KetoForce and only drank water.)

    Total in all 10 ketone shots: (I only consumed 5)

    6 cc KetoForce

    20 ounces cold brew coffee

    5 tsp maple syrup

    3-4 ounces (approximate) lemon juice – added morning of swim

    I divided the above (not the lemon juice) in 10 2-3 ounce silicon squeeze bottles. I wasn’t sure if having the lemon juice added to that mix a day ahead would be a problem, so I added a squirt of lemon juice to each bottle the morning of the swim. Next time I’ll mix it all together the night before. It was more palatable in the water than I expected. The coffee flavor was strong and dominated. The hint of sweetness from the syrup helped too, and wasn’t enough to affect fat burning during the swim.

    As part of breakfast that morning around 5:00 AM, I had 1 cc of KetoForce. I had an additional 2 cc’s about 20 minutes before the start around 7:10 AM.

    For a 10:06 swim I didn't ingest many calories. Total UCan was about 1/2 of what I mixed or 3 scoops with 16 ounces of coconut water mixed with extra water. I had 3 cc of KetoForce before the swim and 3 cc during. After a minor cramp at 2:00 I had no more cramping, even on exiting the water. That is a first for me on a long swim and I've tried other electrolytes and pickle juice.

    I hope someone else will find this useful!

    pavlicovIronMikeDanSimonelliMvG

    Life begins at the end of your comfort zone. --Neale Donald Walsch

  • BridgetBridget New York StateMember

    dc_in_sf said:
    DanSimonelli" said:Note:
    I believe as scientific fact that,
    1. "eating fat doesn't make you fat".
    2. "exercise is an insignificant factor in weight loss".

    Hrmmm when I picked up swimming I dropped 35 pounds without changing my diet, so I am not sure I agree with your second assertion.

    The second statement is accurate in that many people will say, "I'm going to exercise and lose 20 pounds." Then they stop exercising. At that point, they are now used to being more active with the same (maybe) calories, so even not changing eating will cause weight gain if the activity stops. If your new food intake and new activity level remain stable over time, you may lose weight initially, then stabilize.

    I know that when I started my serious swim training in January 2017, I had no weight change for months, although I steadily increased my mileage from zero to between 15-20miles a week. During Lent, I do an observation that had me record all food intake for ratios of fat:carb:protein, and even if my calories went up as I tried to remember to consume the right amount of protein relative to the others, I lost weight, and that continued into July-- when I did NOT want to be losing weight. I was facing a long cold, swim, and wanted energy and insulation. I'm in a transition from heavy mileage for winter, and trying to keep my weight fairly stable, because yo-yos aren't healthy.

    DanSimonelli
  • BridgetBridget New York StateMember

    DanSimonelli said:
    Thanks Evan!
    It's was fun to reflect on the swims and write my thoughts out...so I appreciate Steve asking.

    Yes-- good interview-- and I don't know why non-swimmers aren't smearing themselves with diaper cream. ;-) We are so stylish! Maybe the illustrations from your article will help. . .

    DanSimonelli
  • SpacemanspiffSpacemanspiff Dallas, TexasSenior Member

    Much to the delight of my many food allergic, perpetually-dieting and/or overall picky-eating friends (victims), most of whom I've relentlessly derided and mocked for decades (in the best-natured way, of course), I am on a diet [gasp]. I am getting my comeuppance to say the least.

    I've consumed less than 50 grams of carbs per day for the past 6 days. It has been one hell of an adjustment (I ordinarily eat a ton of carbs--I never tracked it, but I don't think it would be an exaggeration to suggest I might otherwise average at least 500g/day). For the first several days, I was lethargic, cranky and distracted. I slept well, but woke with a splitting headache. I can barely finish my swim practices (masters' coach says my stroke looks "unhappy") and was so light headed in the locker room one day that I considered (and probably should have) alerting one of my compatriots that I was in distress. In hindsight, I probably should have decreased by carb intake more gradually and/or reduced my exercise volume during transition. My ketones were zero on day one, but have been between 1 and 3 mmol/L for the last two days.

    I have a few questions:

    (1) How long should I expect it to take from achieving optimal ketone levels to being fully keto-adapted (if I'm saying that right)? In other words, when will I start reaping the full benefit?

    (2) Is there a way to "know" I'm there? I do feel MUCH better today. I'm alert, focused and have a far more pleasant disposition. I haven't worked out yet, but I suspect I will feel better than I have been.

    (3) Last night, when I stared down the ever-present, family-size Oreo box in the pantry, I actually felt a weird aversion (nausea?) rather than temptation (it has been my regular practice to consume 5 Oreos and a tall glass of milk every night for decades) Is normal to develop negative feelings about junk sugars like this?

    I don't presently plan on adopting this as a lifestyle choice. Rather, it is intended a swim tactic to avoid the nausea/vomiting and blood sugar roller coaster that has been such an inhibitor for years. So, for now, I'm just putting my toe in the water to see how far in advance of my swims I need to start the adaptation process and to experiment with some long swims and new feed strategies. I might stay on the train a bit longer if I also experience the weight loss others report (so far, it seems I am losing weight, but it's still early).

    DanSimonelli

    "Lights go out and I can't be saved
    Tides that I tried to swim against
    Have brought be down upon my knees
    Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."

  • ssthomasssthomas DenverCharter Mem​ber

    I'm also just starting to dip my toes in the keto-koolaid. I had read that fasting prior to chemo therapy helps diminish the symptoms of chemo and helps increase it's effectiveness. (my doctor said it was ok to try, btw) Fasting is also a really fast way to put yourself into ketoisis. I'm just coming off about 65 hours of no food- just water and bone broth. But, the more I read about the keto diet, the more I believe that it's beneficial for fighting cancer and for every day life. I'm not looking to make immediate changes while going through chemo, but I already know that cutting down on carbs and sugars makes me feel better. I am terrified of giving up my beloved CarboPro, so I'd love to hear more endorsements about UCAN and your ability to swim for a long time on it. I almost can't believe it's possible, even though you all say it is!

    SpacemanspiffDanSimonelli
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    Latent response,
    I'm still convinced that exercise isn't a factor (at least a significant one) in weight loss.
    Read more.

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member
    edited January 2018

    @Spacemanspiff

    The transition need not be fraught with such peril
    :)

    Read more about it.
    Supplement with electrolytes, sodium, magnesium mainly as I recall.
    I was directed to do so and had none of the malaise some experience.

    1) I've read generally 2-4 weeks.

    2) Yes, stable recurring ketone level measurements

    3) YES! Sugar is absolutely addictive with all the previous side effects.
    I've experienced this many times now as I've gone back and forth being diligent with the diet.

    4) Not necessary, imo, to stay in nutritional ketosis ongoing if you choose. I haven't. But I've continued with LCHF for over 4 years now and it's simply become my lifestyle, pleasurably!
    I stay around 100g carbs per day.
    I don't really count anymore, just know what's what now.

    I've done all my long marathon swims keto-adapted, and I know more who have also.
    It's definitely an advantage, imo.

    Read:
    Art and Science of Low Carb Performance.

    MvG
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    @ssthomas

    I believe it also. :)

    I think it's possible you could continue with CarboPro for training swims and event.

    I've been using ucan for about 4 years now, so we can talk more about it if you want.

    ssthomas
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    edited January 2018

    I second the recommendation on Volek and Phinney's Art and Science of Low Carb Performance. Excellent book that explains this diet clearly. Their Low Carb Living book is less necessary.

    @Spacemanspiff, I suffered all the weird low-carb things when I started as well. Lethargy in my swims, headaches, etc. But no more, even when I fall off the wagon (my kids make a mean tuna pasta) and get back on. I'm at about 100g or fewer a day; I cannot quit beer. Need my glass or two at night. Most days, those are my only carbs besides however many are in a cup of steamed broccoli.

    I've done a few marathon-distance swims low carb since. Issyk Kul (6 hours, only Crystal-Lite flavored water, 0 calories) and my DQ in 20 Bridges (7+ miles, my move upstream, 20 miles) on only the flavored water, one pack of pepperoni slices, and I think 4 x nut butters at 2g carbs each...so 8g carbs over 9:31 total. Never felt the bonk in either swim.

    @ssthomas, I forget which book it is in, but the average person's body has something like 40,000 calories of fat available for energy. If your body is keto-adapted, that means your body will burn that first (this is a simplified explanation, of course). You can go a long time on those 40,000 calories. c.f. Tim Olsen, Zach Bitter, Nikki Kimball, our own @DanSimonelli and this article on those who have done ultramarathon distances on little to no carbs.

    I, for one, love the diet. Bacon whenever I want. How can that be wrong?

    DanSimonelli

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • I've been on a reduced carb diet for a few months and now eat a bigger and better breakfast, a smaller and lighter lunch (thai/viet style soups) then go with the flow at dinner time. I've completely cut out carbo and protein supplements which used to feature prominently in my exercise routine. I've felt the low energy moments check in whilst swimming but recover quite quickly. I'm more concerned about feeling very tired 3 or 4 hours after exercise, whether swimming or weight training. Is this normal or am I just struggling to get fit again?

  • ssthomasssthomas DenverCharter Mem​ber

    DanSimonelli said:

    Read:
    Art and Science of Low Carb Performance.

    Both books by those authors were purchased and arrived on Tuesday. Can't wait to delve into them. :-)

    DanSimonelliJBirrrd
  • DanSimonelli said:
    Latent response,
    I'm still convinced that exercise isn't a factor (at least a significant one) in weight loss.
    Read more.

    The fact that human beings are, at so many levels, such complicated organisms leads me to suspect that this blanket statement has a small likelyhood of being true for each and every one. As for the "read more": it is incredibly difficult (as it should be) to do accurate, bias-free, scientific experiments involving humans, thus making it difficult to draw unbiased and accurate conclusions. I don't doubt your conviction, but I do doubt the universality of the statement.

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member
    edited January 2018

    mamiller said:

    DanSimonelli said:
    Latent response,
    I'm still convinced that exercise isn't a factor (at least a significant one) in weight loss.
    Read more.

    The fact that human beings are, at so many levels, such complicated organisms leads me to suspect that this blanket statement has a small likelyhood of being true for each and every one. As for the "read more": it is incredibly difficult (as it should be) to do accurate, bias-free, scientific experiments involving humans, thus making it difficult to draw unbiased and accurate conclusions. I don't doubt your conviction, but I do doubt the universality of the statement.

    I understand your perspective, I shared it once upon a time.
    However, individuality doesn't mean the conclusion is biased.
    If there are anomalies, they're just that.

    Where individuality comes into play:
    The type of calories (not the amount) one ingests and the individual reaction to those certain type of calories (fat, protein, carb) is what is the predomininant determinating factor in fat being stored in tissue and organs or not.

    Therefore, I believe that while exercise has other definitive benefits (mental and/or physical), it does not effect whether the human body partitions fat storage.

    ssthomasIronMike
  • Just to be sure I understand you: let's say someone eats 3500 calories a day for a year, with distribution 60% carb, 20% fat, 20% protein (3500 calories at this proportion each and every day for a year). You seem to be saying that the weight of her/his body fat will be the same at the end of the year, independent of whether or not he/she burns 3000 calories each and every day, or 4000 calories each and every day for that year. Is this what you are saying?

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member
    edited January 2018

    Yes and no.

    I don't believe in the "calories in, calories out" hypothesis.

    It depends on the type of calories and how that individual's body reacts to those calories (mainly carbs, lesser protein).

    Ingesting fat doesn't make you fat.

    MvG
  • DanSimonelli said:
    Yes and no.

    Schrodinger's fat.

    pavlicovflystormsMvG
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    It wasn't meant to be an equivocating answer.

    Certainly it's nuanced.

    I'm not making this up.
    You can delve into the primary resources as I have over the last few years.

    The two books I was advised to read initially:
    Good Calories Bad Calories
    Why We Get Fat

    Many other resources followed, including following/working with Dr Peter Attia and Nutrition Science Initiative which he co-founded with Gary Taubes.

    IronMikerosemarymint
  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member

    FWIW, I thought Art and Science of Low Carb Performance was very poor, with less science than the "art" which I took eventually as a euphemism for unproven and unsourced hyperbole. I gave up half way through.

    What was purported as science was often without any sources or references and left me very sceptical and was written in the same fashion and with the same authority as the shampoo advertisement that says "this is the science bit".

    loneswimmer.com

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    Hmmmm, interesting.
    What about their own research studies?

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    edited January 2018

    If you have an organizational affiliation you can get to the FASTER study here. Abstract here.

    There are many studies out there. It is counter-intuitive and yes, still experimental. I have chosen to go this path and my blood pull numbers don't lie.

    I also don't believe the calories in calories out lie. If that were the case, why not 3500 calories of cake in, exercise and simple daily life burn 3500 calories daily, then I'm the same weight I was at the start. Even if you use what @mamiller recommends (60% carb, 20% fat, 20% protein), it still depends on what type of carb those 60% are composed of. All vegetables? All dry cereal? All pasta? Same with the fat and protein.

    All I know is health issues I had before (severe & chronic acid reflux, excessive dad-like "pull my finger" ability) are gone now. No affect on my weight. Cholesterol never been better. Triglycerides incredible. BP and resting HR awesome.

    Every body is different. Mine has been through 16+ years of pescovegetarianism. And during that time my LDL was horrible and overall cholesterol was in mid-200s. (I was kept off meds for it simply because my HDL was also "good". Now it is "great".) I've never felt better since getting rid of or severely limiting simple carbs from my life.

    DanSimonelliMvG

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • loneswimmerloneswimmer IrelandCharter Member

    The plural of anecdote is not data.

    When there is "science" in the title, I expect science and the scientific method in the content. I don't recall the studies except that they didn't seem to adhere to the level of rigour I'd expect for something that purports to herald a profound evidence-based change in eating habits.

    Kind of like a lot of diet books therefore.

    pavlicov

    loneswimmer.com

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    edited January 2018

    If you want science, read the FASTER study I linked above. Or any from this list of about 20 scientific papers on LCHF. Or these. Or some from Harvard.

    Since my brother-in-law switched to LCHF (he's been Type-1 diabetic for many years now), his 'numbers' have improved. I don't understand diabetes that well, but he's happier, has fewer crashes or "bad numbers" emergencies, and is in a much better mood.

    Why not try it for a while @loneswimmer and see how it affects you? If you do this experiment, I'd advise getting a blood panel prior and then about 6 months in to see the effects.

    (edit to add more links and diabetes comment.)

    DanSimonelliMvG

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member
    edited January 2018

    Donal,

    That is precisely the mission of Nutrition Science Initiative:
    fund good, proper scientific research on the matter.

    The carb/sugar revolution is on its backside, and I believe both anecdotally and scientifically (from some good research studies) and have hope that LCHF will become the prevailing healthy diet.

    There has been some proper, well done studies.
    And clearly the last decades of research upon which the carb diet is based have been conclusively debunked.

    Of course, taking individualality into account, and as Mike says above, individual testing is the most prudent procedure to customize. And that will be the biggest barrier to broad adoption and institutionalization.

    IronMikeloneswimmerMvG
  • danswimsdanswims Portland, ORMember

    Here's some thoughts from someone who rigorously considers the science. He's an obesity researcher and from reading his blog it appears that calories matter, but it is more complicated than calories in, calories out. On the other hand demonizing a macronutrient be it carbs or fat is also overly simplistic. If you read the whole post he's not as hard on the ketogenic diet as the intro might imply.

    http://www.stephanguyenet.com/reflections-on-the-us-news-world-report-diet-rankings-and-my-involvement-in-them/

    DanSimonelliIronMikeMvG
  • brunobruno Barcelona (Spain)Senior Member

    loneswimmer said:
    The plural of anecdote is not data.

    When there is "science" in the title, I expect science and the scientific method in the content. I don't recall the studies except that they didn't seem to adhere to the level of rigour I'd expect for something that purports to herald a profound evidence-based change in eating habits.

    Kind of like a lot of diet books therefore.

    There's so much woo around diets (from Dukan to artichoke, from vegan to paleo, no carbs, no protein..., you name it), that any person or study claiming whatever new hype is the best next thing, must be specially careful if she/he wants to be taken seriously (from us people expecting real science).

    So give me real science, and I'll believe. This means at least a dozen independent papers, with comparable, consistent conclusions; peer-reviewed; tests made with control groups; good statistics; published in respected indexed journals, etc.

    In the meantime, I say no to any radical approach involving removal of main components off the standard WHO/FAO's nutrition pyramid.

    loneswimmer
  • SpacemanspiffSpacemanspiff Dallas, TexasSenior Member

    I just want to be able to swim without projectile vomiting.

    If being keto-adapted gets me there, I'm in. If not, I'm out.

    DanSimonelliJBirrrdBridgetmina

    "Lights go out and I can't be saved
    Tides that I tried to swim against
    Have brought be down upon my knees
    Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    bruno said:

    loneswimmer said:
    The plural of anecdote is not data.

    When there is "science" in the title, I expect science and the scientific method in the content. I don't recall the studies except that they didn't seem to adhere to the level of rigour I'd expect for something that purports to herald a profound evidence-based change in eating habits.

    Kind of like a lot of diet books therefore.

    There's so much woo around diets (from Dukan to artichoke, from vegan to paleo, no carbs, no protein..., you name it), that any person or study claiming whatever new hype is the best next thing, must be specially careful if she/he wants to be taken seriously (from us people expecting real science).

    So give me real science, and I'll believe. This means at least a dozen independent papers, with comparable, consistent conclusions; peer-reviewed; tests made with control groups; good statistics; published in respected indexed journals, etc.

    In the meantime, I say no to any radical approach involving removal of main components off the standard WHO/FAO's nutrition pyramid.

    Couldn't agree more!!!

    LCHF is not new.

    Such well done studies studies have been done, both old and new, complicated in the middle with tons of bad science studies with conclusions being made erroneously!

    Certainly more good science needs to be done, but that doesn't mean what research has been done well shouldn't at least lead one to conclude that a predominately carb driven diet is grossly problematic.

    I'm convinced from my reading and learning directly over the last 4 years from primary resources and those doing the good science and doctors making the changes with their patients that this is more than "hype or best next thing".

    MvGJBirrrd
  • Sarah4140Sarah4140 DenverMember

    DanSimonelli said:
    @ssthomas

    I believe it also. :)

    I think it's possible you could continue with CarboPro for training swims and event.

    I've been using ucan for about 4 years now, so we can talk more about it if you want.

    As far as ucan or carbopro, isn’t the key to use it only within certain time frames of the endurance event? I am no expert on this keto adapted thing but this is consistent with the most recent reading I have done (and the article I was reading related to ultra running events).

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    bruno said:
    So give me real science, and I'll believe. This means at least a dozen independent papers, with comparable, consistent conclusions; peer-reviewed; tests made with control groups; good statistics; published in respected indexed journals, etc.

    In the meantime, I say no to any radical approach involving removal of main components off the standard WHO/FAO's nutrition pyramid.

    @bruno, I linked above over 30 independent, peer-reviewed scientific papers, most of which are freely downloadable, in about 15 minutes of Googling. So more than "at least a dozen..." If you don't have any interest in the LCHF diet, don't pretend it is because there are no studies out there.

    As for your nutrition pyramid concerns, you can find just as many studies (scientific) showing the food pyramid is wrong as you can find studies saying it is correct. All I know is that for the U.S., since the USDA's food pyramid arrived on the scene (1992), U.S. obesity rates have jumped from 11% to almost 30%. I'm willing to try something different (n=1), and so far the results for me and my wife have been wonderful.

    DanSimonelliMvGminaJBirrrd

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • My wife and I have been doing the "Keto" thing for a couple months now and we are loving it. I have done a few longer pool swims but nothing in OW yet. Going to be very interested in how my long distance performance fares.

    I had no issues giving up sugar, but I will say i miss pasta and good garlic bread the most. Keeping my carb consumption to under 35 grams a day is surprisingly easy (thank goodness for sugar free jello cubes)

    IronMikeDanSimonelliMvG
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    Toad said:
    (thank goodness for sugar free jello cubes)

    Look up "keto fat bombs." Those help me with my sweet cravings!

    MvGDanSimonelli

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • MvGMvG MauritiusCharter Member

    Hi all,

    Also because @IronMike asked me, I'd like to put on record a recent fat-adapted swim of mine.

    I swam the Catalina (San Pedro) Channel in California on 27 June this year, 32.5 kms in appr. 20°C water in a relatively fast 9h26m. (With @dansimonelli on my crew!). Fat adapted, because while I must have burned at least 8-9000 calories during the swim, my caloric intake was no more than appr. 1500 calories worth of Ucan superstarch. Pre-swim meal was 3-400 grams of hummus with celery stalks, whereas in the preceding days I had purposely been eating low carb (eggs, veggies, yoghurt, hummus) to fire up my fat metabolism. I used water with sugar-free SiS electrolyte tablets for hydration. No bonking during the swim and able to push hard until the end, not even excessively hungry afterwards (but a massive craving for cold beer!), so fat adaptation worked fine for me in this swim. (If only fat adaptation worked for shoulder pain!)

    I should mention that being fat adapted also helps me cut down considerably on time lost in feeding. During my Catalina swim I took a Ucan superstarch shake of 300 mls every 90 minutes, and a few quick swigs of water with electrolytes every 30 minutes. Quite an improvement compared to my feeding regime when I started channel swimming some 8 years ago, when I would take Maxim every 20 minutes and banana or stroopwafel every 60 minutes.

    I am normally not in ketosis (very rare actually), but over the past year have made a point of doing most of my workouts, and especially the long ones, on an empty stomach and on water only. I mostly (though not religiously) avoid high glycemic index foods in general, This seems to do the trick.

    IronMikeKatieBunpavlicovDanSimonelliSpacemanspiffflystormsminaWebstem67JBirrrdJeremyWhelchel
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