Fly

david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member
edited July 2020 in General Discussion
Anyone else find butterfly as useful training for their big swims?
I enjoy a heavy dose of fly in my workouts, but due to the rather narrow lanes (6'... thats under 2 meters to the rest of the world) at my regular pool, I usually opt for all (or 90%) freestyle when I have a lane mate or two.

I find I can get the most bang for my buck during shorter pool sessions, and I don't suffer from any shoulder pain, which seems to be the biggest complaint from most people... and seems to be the reason most masters swimmers beg out of fly.

If there is any interest, lets use this thread to share fly-based practices, and advice.

...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

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Comments

  • rosemarymintrosemarymint Charleston, SCCharter Member
    edited March 2012
    I love fly and find my stroke doesn't fully warm up in the pool until I've done a few drill sets involving either full-out fly or one-armed drills. Mostly I do these sets as drill fly to ease up on the shoulder pressure and rarely do a full stroke more than twice a week.

    I have several 500-1000 drill sets that are either fly/back/free or IM drills. I usually drop about 10secs/100m after I've done the sets.

    First one is 10x50 -odds are fly/free, evens are back/free. The free in both sets are hypoxic 3 to hypoxic 5, all with a 5sec rest. Sometimes I do this as 20x50 depending on my total workout distance that day.

    Second is 10x75 IM. Straightforward (fly/back/breast - free/fly/back, etc)

    Third is 8x200s- stroke first 25 per lap/free second 25 per lap. I greatly dislike breaststroke so I tend to do this as odd sets fly and even sets back.

    The point in all of these is to build up to some amount of fly, but not too much. I only do about 100m per session of all-our fly just to protect my shoulders (I've had reconstructive surgery already and don't care to have it again.)

  • david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member
    edited March 2012
    Not a fly workout... but part of Friday's main set for the Gunks masters was a cross-fit inspired sprint/push-up session.
    12x 100 as:
    3x (50easy + 10 push-ups + 50sprint)
    3x (50sprint + 10 push-ups + 50easy)
    3x (50fly + 10 push-ups + 50free)
    3x (25ez/25sprint + 10 push-ups + 25sprint/25ez)

    now... the water surface at the deep end at our pool is about 18" below the deck and so to exit gracefully for each round of p'ups requires a powerful mantle.

    ...soreness prevails (the 46 degree water at Brighton Beach was therapeutic)

    ...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited March 2015
    Here's another blast-from-the-past thread.

    I've never been much of a Fly-er, but I recently watched this video from the Race Club and coach Gary Hall on the "butterfly skate drill." I love this drill! Maybe you will too.

    https://vimeo.com/119868870
  • gregocgregoc Charter Member
    edited March 2015
    Anyone else find butterfly as useful training for their big swims?


    Short answer, no. Long answer, no.
    dc_in_sfCole_GNoelFigartAnthonyMcCarleyflystormsmiklcctSuddethBdpm50
  • Cole_GCole_G PhiladelphiaMember
    Haha I love your answer gregoc.

    I still incorporate fly and IM into my training, though I can't really comment on how useful I find it. I started to incorporate it back into my workouts more as a motivational tool than anything. I found I was having difficulty keeping myself motivated since I am training alone and trying to put in more yardage than I ever have before. Os I found that reverting to a practice scheme similar to what I had known with my club team (where Mondays were IM day) has helped me keep up with my training better.

    I suppose once SCAR rolls around I might better be able to asses how useful the addition of fly really has been.
  • dpm50dpm50 PA, U.S.Senior Member
    Yeah, Greg's answer certainly is a popular one--seven likes and no doubt counting! :)

    Other strokes: They're on my "should" list (I will try a breaststroke event occasionally at swim meets, and once even ventured into a 100 IM... video of that should NEVER surface--only out of care for my fellow human beings). ;)

    That said, I do like sometimes to alternate front and back kick sets. And if no one's looking, I'll try fly from time to time. ;)
  • NiccNicc TennesseeMember
    Once upon a time, back when I was a wee teen, I really enjoyed fly. I swam IM and 100 fly, plus the fly leg of a medley relay. It felt powerful, it made me feel strong, and it lived up to the name--I felt like I was flying across the water in that stroke.

    Not so much when I try it these days.

    But I do still regularly throw in at least a little bit of fly to my workouts. I also kind of feel like it's a good way of upping the intensity of a shorter swim (that's how it feels, anyway) but mostly I have to admit I'm chasing that old joy I used to find in the stroke. I think I'm getting closer. I have my moments with it these days, just not ever an entire length of the pool.
    dpm50
  • msathletemsathlete Victoria, British Colubia, CanadaMember
    I do as much fly as I can during the training season. I find it helpful for building power quickly. It's also a great confidence builder, at least for me.

    Every year about 1/3 of the way into the season I do a set of 100 x 100 IM - the main rule being no single arm fly. And whenever my club does 25s or 50s I swim fly. If a set requires me to get my heart rate up I swim fly. My freestyle has become so even and easy paced that I find it near impossible to get my heart rate where a fly set does.
    mjstaples
  • SpacemanspiffSpacemanspiff Dallas, TexasSenior Member
    March is Fly Month in Dallas Masters. I hate March. Today's beatdown:

    2x200 Pull @ 3:00
    8x50 (first 25 fly, second free) @ 1:00
    2x200 Pull @ 3:00
    10x50 (first 25 free, second fly) @ 1:00
    2x200 Pull @ 3:00
    12x50 (odds fly, evens free) @ 1:00

    I slipped on my fins half-way through the final fly set. I couldn't take it anymore. My shoulders were like noodles. 50M is a long way to fly.

    "Lights go out and I can't be saved
    Tides that I tried to swim against
    Have brought be down upon my knees
    Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."

  • mjstaplesmjstaples Atlanta, GA, USSenior Member

    I use fly as a mental endurance test. I have done a few 50x100 IMs just to see if I can push past the barrier in my head.

    dpm50
  • JenAJenA Charter Member
    edited July 2020

    I thought folks might appreciate this epic drone shot of 14 year old Michaela Arsenault's butterfly crossing of Lake Erie. I'm not sure what her official time was -- somewhere around 14 hours for 20km?

    More images and video are available here: https://twitter.com/swimlakeontario

    ClPftrTXEAAL-bV

    curlyKatieBunSuddethB
  • Epic, indeed!

  • mjstaplesmjstaples Atlanta, GA, USSenior Member

    Omg!!

  • 13 hours 52 minutes. An impressive swim with the awful conditions she encountered. Gotta love open water swimming!

    JenASolo
  • 19.2 KM I believe. I've not seen a good vertical like that before. Sure has a beautiful set of butterfly wings showing in the water where her hands passed. Lovely!

  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    @gregoc said:
    david_barra wrote:

    Anyone else find butterfly as useful training for their big swims?



    Short answer, no. Long answer, no.

    I agree. I don't do anything but freestyle. In my opinion butterfly is for showing off only. I have a friend who showed off in ice water this year.

    Freestyle (front crawl) is the fastest and most efficient stroke. Breaststroke is for looking forward. Backstroke is for recovery. There is no practical use for butterfly. It exists only because of a loophole in the old breaststroke rules (it was defined as any symmetrical stroke).

  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member
    edited August 2020

    @miklcct said:
    I agree. I don't do anything but freestyle. In my opinion butterfly is for showing off only. I have a friend who showed off in ice water this year.

    Freestyle (front crawl) is the fastest and most efficient stroke. Breaststroke is for looking forward. Backstroke is for recovery. There is no practical use for butterfly. It exists only because of a loophole in the old breaststroke rules (it was defined as any symmetrical stroke).

    So you don't do any stroke but freestyle, yet you say butterfly has no practical use. A complete swimmer can swim all four strokes proficiently. All the strokes use different muscles and techniques. As a result, when you do a workout using all four strokes, you get a complete workout. Plus mastering each of the strokes has a spillover effect because parts of each stroke show up in the other strokes.

    Looked at another way, this would be like a golfer saying that the only stroke that is useful is putting, because it hits the ball in the hole and that's what counts. Driving is just showing off because it makes a loud sound and looks great on TV. My guess is that this golfer would not be considered to be a golfer by others in the sport. Nor would he ever progress in his goal to become a proficient golfer. He will be tilting at windmills on a putt putt course...

    In truth, butterfly is the last stroke a swimmer learns because it is a combination of power and technique that is difficult to master. But once it is executed well, it is a beautiful stroke, one that is as fun to watch as it is to do.

    kejoyceKatieBunflystorms
  • JSwimJSwim western Maryland, USSenior Member

    ... and as “good feel for the water” is the ultimate key to swimming fast, and having “it” is evidenced by being able to swim any stoke efficiently (or learning new strokes or drills or water techniques pretty easily). But the reverse is true too. You can increase your feel for the water by learning new strokes or flip turns or butterfly or (my favorite) body surfing. And you can’t get feel for the water unless you spend lots of time moving in water. Why not learn fly?

    KatieBunwendyv34

    Life begins at the end of your comfort zone. --Neale Donald Walsch

  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber
    edited August 2020

    @curly said:

    @miklcct said:
    I agree. I don't do anything but freestyle. In my opinion butterfly is for showing off only. I have a friend who showed off in ice water this year.

    Freestyle (front crawl) is the fastest and most efficient stroke. Breaststroke is for looking forward. Backstroke is for recovery. There is no practical use for butterfly. It exists only because of a loophole in the old breaststroke rules (it was defined as any symmetrical stroke).

    So you don't do any stroke but freestyle, yet you say butterfly has no practical use. A complete swimmer can swim all four strokes proficiently. All the strokes use different muscles and techniques. As a result, when you do a workout using all four strokes, you get a complete workout. Plus mastering each of the strokes has a spillover effect because parts of each stroke show up in the other strokes.

    Looked at another way, this would be like a golfer saying that the only stroke that is useful is putting, because it hits the ball in the hole and that's what counts. Driving is just showing off because it makes a loud sound and looks great on TV. My guess is that this golfer would not be considered to be a golfer by others in the sport. Nor would he ever progress in his goal to become a proficient golfer. He will be tilting at windmills on a putt putt course...

    In truth, butterfly is the last stroke a swimmer learns because it is a combination of power and technique that is difficult to master. But once it is executed well, it is a beautiful stroke, one that is as fun to watch as it is to do.

    In June I joined a new squad and they attempted to teach me butterfly (I was only proficient in freestyle and breaststroke that I have confidence in swimming 1 mile in open water). I don't know if I couldn't get it right, but it makes my shoulder so tired because of the unnatural movement on my arms (in freestyle, the body rotation is used in order to off-load the pressure on the shoulder such that it won't get hurt) and the body movement is also so damn tiring to my waist. I even got back pain after the first day joining the squad. After a month, even 50 m is still a struggle for me in butterfly, I have trouble bringing my arms out of the water after a few strokes, and my body is out of control.

    I no longer do the squad because its training is mainly for pool master swimming and not so relevant to triathlon or long distance open water swimming. I would rather go back to a triathlon club squad which only do freestyle. Freestyle is the most efficient form to cover the distance with the greatest speed and the least energy expenditure. It's for speed and comfort. I want to maximise the effectiveness of my training and I believe that training freestyle is the best method to improve my freestyle.

  • KatieBunKatieBun CornwallSenior Member
    edited August 2020

    @miklcct said:
    I no longer do the squad because its training is mainly for pool master swimming and not so relevant to triathlon or long distance open water swimming. I would rather go back to a triathlon club squad which only do freestyle. Freestyle is the most efficient form to cover the distance with the greatest speed and the least energy expenditure. It's for speed and comfort. I want to maximise the effectiveness of my training and I believe that training freestyle is the best method to improve my freestyle.

    The year I swam EC, I was already swimming with Masters but, in addition, I joined another Masters squad 50 miles away for 2 x 2 hour training sessions every week. It was much more intense than my usual squad, quite tiring with the additional 100 miles of driving and I couldn't always do what they asked but I never regretted it. It made me stronger and faster that year. Pool Masters training is extremely relevant to long distance open water. My winter training is mainly Masters training, same as many of my open water training buddies...... using all strokes, technique, drills, pull, kick and mixed sets, including IM. I'm useless at butterfly.... but fly kick, including fly kick on your back, is an excellent tool for developing core strength. In all the years I've been coaching, I've always included it as the fifth stroke.

    Sara_WolfjendutthelittlemerwookiekejoyceIronMikeflystormsssthomaswendyv34
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber
    edited August 2020

    @KatieBun said:
    The year I swam EC, I was already swimming with Masters but, in addition, I joined another Masters squad 50 miles away for 2 x 2 hour training sessions every week.

    50 miles?! That will be a few cities away! and even it you drive you will likely need 2 hours each way (assuming an average speed of 25 mph which isn't even possible in peak hour traffic - it commonly takes 40 minutes to drive 9 miles in my city in peak hour traffic because roads are hilly, winded with only a single lane in each direction)! Why do you do that? If I live near the coast I would rather use that 8 hours every week to do a long OW swim on the weekend to build my acclimation and confidence in rough water.

    In the UK winter where long OW training is not possible, I would rather do sets in the pool to build up my speed, however I have absolutely 0 interest in building strength. I believe that speed comes from efficiency as I believe that the no 1 limiter in your speed is your bad form causing extra drag. The training is to make sure that you can keep a good form to prevent any unnecessary drag.

  • KatieBunKatieBun CornwallSenior Member
    edited August 2020

    @miklcct said:
    Why do you do that? If I live near the coast I would rather use that 8 hours every week to do a long OW swim on the weekend to build my acclimation and confidence in rough water.

    I do it because I take advice from those with masses of experience in training for marathon open water swims. As a result of listening to those people, acting on that good advice and not spending all my time arguing with them, I find I've had some modest success with my distance swimming, even if it means I have to put myself out or train in less than ideal conditions.

    .....and doing that extra Masters training didn't stop me doing long sea swims at weekends.

    Sara_WolfabbygirlrosecurlyJSwimthelittlemerwookieevmoPasqualekejoyceIronMikeiainhwLakeBaggerflystormsssthomasMoCowendyv34
  • brunobruno Barcelona (Spain)Senior Member

    @miklcct said:

    I no longer do the squad because its training is mainly for pool master swimming and not so relevant to triathlon or long distance open water swimming.

    (...)

    Freestyle is the most efficient form to cover the distance with the greatest speed and the least energy expenditure. It's for speed and comfort. I want to maximise the effectiveness of my training and I believe that training freestyle is the best method to improve my freestyle.

    (...)

    I would rather do sets in the pool to build up my speed, however I have absolutely 0 interest in building strength. I believe that speed comes from efficiency as I believe that the no 1 limiter in your speed is your bad form causing extra drag. The training is to make sure that you can keep a good form to prevent any unnecessary drag.

    Excuse me for not being very gentle, but I can't believe how you are getting all wrong. After months of questions, you have got tons of excellent advice from accomplished marathon swimmers and still you are stubborn and close-minded an you are not able to understand that disregarding everything which does not fit in your preconceived (and let me tell you, wrong) believes only gets you closer to failure.

    You need A LOT of hours of training, where you must fit everything: speed and cardio/resistance; technique, different strokes, flip turns; more technique, and when you think you're done, then more technique; strength (no need to lift weights); sets with intervals of 100m, of 400m, of 1000m; long, boring swims of 5000m in a SC pool; kicks; practice on the sea in bad weather, in cool water, in cold water, in warm water, in long waves and in choppy seas, in any challenging condition; in front seas and in following seas; practice with your crew; practice swimming close to a motor boat; bilateral breathing; swimming until you get cramps, and then learn how to keep swimming; did I say more technique? Well, you name it.

    And if you are not able to name it, then good luck; any item you take off the list will get you one mile further away from France.

    And sticking to the thread, yes, I find very useful doing fly (mainly through IM sets). It helps with kicking (I don't like doing kick sets). It helps a lot for breathing and for resistance, as you get far more tired than with FC. And it keeps boredom away.

    PasqualecurlykejoyceIronMikeflystormsssthomaswendyv34
  • brunobruno Barcelona (Spain)Senior Member

    My go-to workout for IM is this one (3K in approx. 65 minutes; I do slight modifications depending on the available time I have that day):

    200m warm up FC

    200m warm up BS/BRS

    200m warm up FC

    8x 50 kicking FLY/BS + BRS/FC (repeat x4) (rest 10'')

    2x 200 Aer-2 (rest 20'')

    4x 100 IM (rest 15'')

    8x 50 inverse IM (FC -BRS -BS -FLY) (rest 10'')

    16x 25m (as if IM: FLY - BS - BRS - FC) (rest 8'')

    Cool down: 400m, different strokes

    I can't give credit to the set because honestly I don't remember where I got it.

    LakeBagger
  • The year I was FOCUSED on developing my fly was the year that every event at my masters meet I entered netted me a personal best time -- including my 500 and mile times.

    Working on fly is "strength in the water",..... it's mental training..... it's "bang for your buck" in terms of aerobic conditioning..... it's getting used to swimming properly even when you feel like your heart is in your throat .... it's an "all over" stroke..... it also helps pin-point body positioning issues that you might have.

    It's also not for everyone......
    and, there are ways to modify it to make it more manageable, especially if you aren't one of the world-class swimmers who aspire to the Olympic-level events.

    Learning to swim fly as an adult was a humbling experience that I'm very glad I accomplished.

    PasqualecurlyLakeBaggerflystormsMoCowendyv34
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    @bruno I'm so glad to see people who incorporate IM into their workouts. Also as @Sara_Wolf says, this is how you get bang for your buck. I also use IM workouts when I am unmotivated. Knock off a couple IM sets and you can't help but get your butt in gear.

    Regarding inverse IM sets. One of my favorites sets is when I do a 100 IM regular order then 100 IM reverse order, then regular, then reverse for however many repeats you want to do. I also use that one when I haven't been doing 200 IMs in a while and I need to get my 50 fly back in tune. I used to do 400 IM sets, but I'm afraid those days are over.

    BTW, for the record I absolutely abhor breast stroke. I possibly am the worst breast stroker on the planet. To quote an earlier post, it has absolutely no practical value. And in my opinion it is ugly as all heck. When I watch someone good at it, I'm utterly amazed that anyone can go so fast with such an ungainly stroke. Compared to fly, which is swimming how god intended, breast stroke is for heathens. But I still throw some stupid breast stroke in my workouts for some unknown reason.

    flystormsssthomas
  • brunobruno Barcelona (Spain)Senior Member

    @curly said:
    BTW, for the record I absolutely abhor breast stroke. I possibly am the worst breast stroker on the planet. To quote an earlier post, it has absolutely no practical value. And in my opinion it is ugly as all heck. When I watch someone good at it, I'm utterly amazed that anyone can go so fast with such an ungainly stroke. Compared to fly, which is swimming how god intended, breast stroke is for heathens. But I still throw some stupid breast stroke in my workouts for some unknown reason.

    Almost 100% agree. I'm not bad at it, but I always think I'm going to fall asleep before reaching the wall!

    @curly said:
    I used to do 400 IM sets, but I'm afraid those days are over.

    Is there something like 400 IM sets, actually? No doubt they should belong in The Animal Set thread!

    ssthomas
  • I’m so not good at breast stroke that we all cheer when it’s not just legal, but I go forward!

    MoCowendyv34
  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    @Sara_Wolf said:
    I’m so not good at breast stroke that we all cheer when it’s not just legal, but I go forward!

    :D

  • curlycurly Issaquah, WASenior Member

    @bruno said:

    @curly said:
    I used to do 400 IM sets, but I'm afraid those days are over.

    Is there something like 400 IM sets, actually? No doubt they should belong in The Animal Set thread!

    Yes, but they are only for the young and foolish. I remember them with a certain sense of dread. I also remember back when our high school coach was working us up to doing 200 fly. The first week was utter horror. You would be amazed at how many times you have to stop and adjust your goggles and re-tie your suit during each 200 on the first week. (Not to mention short cutting at the turns.) But the human body is a miracle machine and by week two, we were doing non-stop 200 fly at a reasonable interval. And I suppose it is fair to say that the 200 fly is about the only competitive pool swim that you either can do or you can't. Every other event you can at least stumble your way through. 200 fly is a pass or fail event.

    And this kind of talk has no place in a discussion board dedicated to marathon swimming...

  • ColmBreathnachColmBreathnach Charter Member

    I thought you only do fly when swimming under bridges ;-)

    On a serious note, I find fly is brilliant for shoulder stability (as are pressups).

    KatieBunflystorms
  • MoCoMoCo Worcester, MASenior Member

    I need to learn to swim fly one of these days. Since I can't even manage to dolphin kick off the wall, it's going to be hilarious.

    (I finally taught myself to flip turn a couple years ago... and realized that it's an immediate trigger to my vertigo, bad enough that by the end of my warmup I was swimming into lane lines. But now I get to say that I CAN flip turn, I just choose not to. )

    Sara_Wolf
  • I'm still not a marathon length butterfly open water swimmer, but when things open up again I'm still working my way toward it.

  • @JenA said:
    I thought folks might appreciate this epic drone shot of 14 year old Michaela Arsenault's butterfly crossing of Lake Erie. I'm not sure what her official time was -- somewhere around 14 hours for 20km?

    Thanks very much for posting this beautiful photo and link. I checked in with Vicki Keith, who has confirmed that the Michaela's swim was all clean fly without aids, and we can see no wetsuit. Her sister also swam the route and was the previous "youngest" for that swim, however her sister did it in free. I added Michaela to my list of confirmed OW butterfly swims.

  • SuddethBSuddethB Member
    edited August 2020

    @evmo said:
    I've never been much of a Fly-er, but I recently watched this video from the Race Club and coach Gary Hall on the "butterfly skate drill." I love this drill! Maybe you will too.

    I learned fly from Terry Laughlin's "Betterfly" DVD. In his training you maintain neutral head postition throughout stroke and breathe with face toward the water rather than constantly rocking neck up and down as is being taught here. I much prefer it steady. This drill also seems to build a practice of keeping shoulders lower and sweeping more water forward than is efficient. I like to have my shoulders just high enough to allow arm sweep forward without pushing water forward and me back.

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