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What is (or should be) the Marathon Swimmers Federation?
evmo
Sydneydev
This discussion was created from comments split from: New MSF Logo Design.
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Great question! I hope you'll forgive me if I answer with another question:
What would you like the Marathon Swimmers Federation to be?
This Forum (and the as-yet-ill-defined 'Federation') would be nothing without you all. There has never been a successful global organization of solo marathon swimmers in the history of the world. So, now is the opportunity to make history.
What would you like it to be?
All viewpoints welcome.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
1. A forum
2. An overseer of marathon swimming rules
3. A member/sponsor funded scholarship granting committee. Maybe one swim a year.
4. An outfit that organizes a yearly swim camp.
5. A resource for swim news/blogs/events/etc.
6. Perhaps a host of an annual event. Say a 10 and 20 mile race that moves annually across the globe.
7. A place where I can go that motivates me to get to the pool.
I'm certainly nonplussed by mention of money and profit and tongue wagging. I've not heard any of this wagging 'til now. MSF and the forum have no resources except the goodwill and engagement of the marathon swimming community and the members and the time that Evan and I, and you all spend either working or moderating the forum or simply talking here. We don't even have monetary resources to give physical trophies for the awards.
Let's take an example; Someone makes a new discussion or a comment. @Evmo and I have look at everything between us. (In all honestly, he does, but I tend to skip a lot of the US specific stuff). The resource required is time. It doesn't matter if one or two hundred members don't log in for months, we have to check the forum all the time.
The forum has grown since we started. I certainly hope it will continue to so do with everyone's involvement. I'd like it to be able to do more, but as I say, the only resources we have are the goodwill and engagement of you all, and what Evan and I can do to keep it alive and vibrant. Sometimes you and we all have ideas the result in a new thread, (rare), sometimes they might grow to something more (even rarer). It's an organic, complimentary process that results from the community itself.
We've always discussed things openly here, so maybe you can explain to me, whose tongues are wagging, and what you mean when you say you are the messenger ? For whom or what?
Edit: @Sully, thank you and we agree with everything you say. We would love to do all those things and more. When my rich uncle leaves me LoneSwimmer Towers and the Duke of LoneSwimmer title with the annual estate income, I promise to put it all at the service of the forum and pay some of Evan's expenses. In the meantime four out of seven ain't bad.
loneswimmer.com
Yes, there are! Would you like to help make these decisions?
What do you mean by "use MSF"? Do you mean "use MSF Rules?" Nobody is forcing anyone to use MSF Rules for their swim. We're proposing it as a standard so people don't have to make up their own, and to clarify in more precise terms what is meant by "traditional marathon swimming rules."
If someone uses some different set of rules, but documents the swim with a qualified observer, then great! As far as I'm concerned, Transparency and Integrity are the greater values in our sport than whether MSF Rules are used or not.
We don't define MSF as a "governing body." For now, if someone does an observed, documented MSF-Rules swim, they are encouraged to submit the documentation to me or Donal, and we will be happy to consider featuring it on the MSF website. For a model of how such documentation might look, see my observer report for Craig Lenning's Farallon Islands swim.
Yes.
I agree.
As I racked my waterlogged brain about this over the last couple of days, I did recall that I had <i>once</i> had a discussion 9 months ago at the Cork Conference, where a well-known senior member of one association asked me these very questions, (but with none of the money rubbish). I had answered openly and candidly where I had any answers.
I'd encourage that person or any others to engage publicly.
loneswimmer.com
1) Goal 1: To react quickly to potential changes/issues in the sport on two fronts:
a) Be a forum for debate and "straw polling" on swimmer's opinions of MS issues
b) Act as a leader by making concrete proposals that, while having no "official" status of law, will reflect point 1 and (hopefully) guide other organizations or people.
2) Goal 2: To propose changes (or propose lack of changes) pro-actively (with same sub-points as 1)
3) Goal 3: Hold "official" bodies accountable for their actions.
4) Goal 4: Provide support and act as an informational resource.
Much of this is already done via the forum, but as example:
Goal 1: The reaction to she-who-cannot-be-named's jacuzzi dip with the codification of the MSF rules. (And subsequent debate, etc)
Goal 2: Just my opinion, but I think that coming up with a formalization of types of swims (by category) is something that needss to be done before the sport grows much more. I've mentioned this before, so no new news here.
Goal 3: FINA's stupid maximum water temperature rule should be rubbed in their noses at every possible opportunity. @loneswimmer's current crusade regarding ice swimming safety is another example.
Goal 4: The forum does this. Perhaps it would also be nice to eventually provide an on-line resource "library" or similar as well as some database things. Or not.
Apropos of nothing: Change the name from Marathon Swimmer's Forum/Federation/whatever" to "Marathon Swimmers United." Not for any good reason at all, except I always thought the English Soccer clubs that had "United" in their names (e.g. Manchester United, Leeds United) sounded really cool and I always wanted a t-shirt like that. Petty, I know, but you asked.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
THAT is a GREAT idea.
Skip the last 3 words. That's the United Federation of Planets.
And let's not forget our guiding principle: "To boldly go where no one has gone before".
On rare occasions, Donal or I (as Forum admins) have removed comments that we (jointly) deem destructive to the community... this is fairly typical of well-run internet forums. Those who were around for the events of early September 2013 will be familiar with this.
So there is not unmoderated freedom of speech on this Forum, nor have we ever claimed such.
As for "holding other 'official' bodies accountable for their actions," I'm not sure what you mean. For example, I might point to Donal's recent blog series on safety in Ice Swimming as one instance of holding official bodies accountable, without infringing on individual liberties.
Or have I misunderstood you?
BUT not too officious to suffocate the sport!
Note to members: the MSF will be adopting Latin as it's official language. @Leonard_Jansen will translate the marathon swimming rules, and members must to be able to conjugate <i>nato</i>.
loneswimmer.com
tunc ego eo ....
I tried to convince myself, but, orange flavour electrolyte, mixed with hot chocolate,
tastes nothing like Terry's Chocolate Orange ....
As far as I recall, I joined the Marathon Swimmers <b>Forum</b> in 2012. But I note that the recently published logo refers to the Marathon Swimmers Federation being established in 2012. I'm not sure what's going on if I'm being perfectly honest. I've only noticed the word "Federation" being used very recently.
I joined the Forum to discuss marathon swimming related issues but as far as I know I haven't also joined a Federation. Wouldn't a Federation need to be formally established with (elected) Board members, articles of association, membership applications, insurance etc.
I'm just a bit worried here that the "Federation" has started running before it has learnt to walk.
Don't take this post the wrong way! I think these are valid points / questions.
<blockquote>currently I would define MSF as the parent organization of the Rules of Marathon Swimming, the Global Marathon Swimming Awards, and this Forum.</blockquote>
The MSF's first product was the Forum, in 2012. Then the Awards, in 2013. Then the Rules, in 2014. And now we have a logo. (commence tongue-wagging!)
The Forum is the Forum, and will remain the Forum. Membership in the Forum does not imply membership in the Federation.
The MSF does not currently have a board of directors, articles of <del>association</del> federation, membership applications, or insurance. So what? We're not asking anything of anyone, so I can't imagine why this "worries" anyone.
When we figure out the board of directors, articles of federation, and all that, I'm sure this is the first place the news would break. Until then, we're certainly open to ideas, which is the purpose of this thread.
The following organizations & governing bodies have (or have expressed intention to) adopt MSF Rules:
8 Bridges Hudson River Swim
Massachusetts Open Water Swimming Association
Tampa Bay Marathon Swim
Lake Erie Open Water Swimming Association
World Open Water Swimming Association (WOWSA)
Coney Island Brighton Beach Open Water Swimmers (CIBBOWS)
Lake Tahoe Swimming Society
Farallon Islands Swimming Federation
Three Rivers Marathon Swim
Bear Lake Swimming Association
Salt Lake Open Water Swim Club
Sandycove Island Swimming Club (SISC)
Lake Ontario Swim Team (LOST Swimming)
Lake Ontario Crossing Organization (LOCO)
MSF doesn't "speak for" these organizations, but I'd argue that the above makes the word "federation" more apropos to MSF than to, for example, the Catalina Channel Swimming <i>Federation</i> or Farallon Islands Swimming <i>Federation</i>, which as far as I can tell are actually "associations" if you really want to get down to semantics.
I had to "google translate" your comment @loneswimmer but for the sake of the rest of us: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? This is a phrase from the Roman poet Juvenal, which is literally translated as "Who will guard the guards themselves?" Is open water swimming in need of a Guard? (not referring to observer/lifeguard safety).
Swimmers turn to open water because of how free the experience makes them feel. Do we need Guards to protect this simple freedom of expression? (not referring to the Forum, freedom of speech or the necessity to censure to maintain peace)
What I'm curious about is how the Guard (Federation) would be conducive to the idea that open water swimming is the individual expression of freedom? Or is the Guard there to put the Nyad-types over it's knee for distorting in the media what the Guard defines as "legitimate" open water swimming? This Forum did a good job of that with 900+ comments not to mention a supplemental 7 part blog to kick the proverbial dead horse <i>ad nauseum</i>. The slippery slope is to then critique the novice open water swimmer who dons a wetsuit and fins because they are cold and scared. Perhaps growing the sport of open water swimming means we put our guard down just a hair.
A Federation that is encouraged to rub the noses of anyone in anything I find distasteful. It is that type of "guarding" that I fear as the Federation contemplates it's birth. (@evmo - see @Leonard_Janson's June 9th suggestions). The Forum may discuss, disagree and critique FINA, Daily News of Open Water Swimming, Total Immersion, MIMS, Trent Grimsey, wetsuits, watches, streamers and CSA until it bursts at the seams with pride. It's the whiff of elitist condescension that I encourage the Federation to avoid. <b>What I hope is that the Federation stays completely positive and take the route that encourages growth of a wonderful sport: far more pleasant to watch a guard dog wag than bark - assuming you need a guard dog.</b>
<i>Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?</i> is normally translated as Who <i>watches</i> the <i>watchers?</i>, rather than <i>guard</i> and how I intended it. It is a shorthand for asking who monitors officialdom: governments, organisations etc. Of course, some organisations don't like this upstart notion. My apologies, I mistakenly assumed you'd know the phrase.
If anything the forum member's response to Diana Nyad, which you dismiss (along with my blog which you told me in NY you liked and learned a lot from), proves that individuals here could act as <i>watchers</i>, watchers when no-one, including any swim organisations, proved to be capable of so doing.
The only We I'm sure of is we are all individual swimmers with individual points of view. The forum and MSF has been active and positive, mainly through the contributions of the members whose participation you question and it has been able to facilitate people to discuss different subjects and promote ideas, ideas such as the rules, which I recall you dismissed also.
@ZoeSadler, evolution of something new, in public, is something not many of us get to be part of or to plan. We're all trying to do it <i>together</i> here and we value yours and everyone's input. No-one's forum membership has been appropriated for anything else, there <i>is</i> nothing else than what you have already seen here. I'm always here for assurance or explanation where I can, even if I'm being invisible!
loneswimmer.com
1) Protector of the spirit of marathon swimming by way of The Rules;
2) Owner of the MS Forums, keeping it open for free exchange of ideas;
3) Host of blogs by marathon swimmers for marathon swimmers;
4) Point of contact for media wanting information on marathon swimming;
5) Sponsor for regional marathon swimming "series" a la H2Open's annual series;
6) Collector of histories of marathon swimming and swimmers;
7) Sponsor for swimmers to national federations so marathon swimmers can claim MSF as their "club" (e.g. MSF as a USMS masters swimming club);
8) Host of marathon swims.
I have no certain ways of getting to this end-state, I simply have ideas. But I am a willing volunteer to help in any of the points above.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Also agree that we should focus on the positive future of our sport - and indeed that is the raison d'être of the MSF (how does that come out in Google Translate?).
The exact wording was: Goal 3: Hold "official" bodies accountable for their actions.
There is no mention of individuals here. Nor is there any mention or implication that we somehow implicity know better and are uniquely qualified to define anything. The first goal was to allow anyone to get their $0.02 in with the idea of coming to some consensus/majority on what is desired within the sport. In light of that, attempting to hold an organization accountable for its actions becomes a matter of taking a unified stand by the people potentially affected and in a way that makes reprisal against individuals more difficult. The FINA water temperature issue is a big issue and yet, despite a number of elites saying they thought it was excessive, <i>sotto voce</i>, you don't hear much. It's too easy to get a target painted on your back if you are the only one standing up.
So if something is wrong as deemed so by the greater community, is it really rubbing anyone's nose, or is it those affected asking the governing for a redress of grievances?
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
Could 2015 be the year of the official MSF swim cap? If so, put me on the list!