So if the dolphins escorted Lynne Cox in Cook Straight for more than an hour, is this an assisted swim? Sorry I couldn't resist, as a lead in to posting this video.
@swimmer25k, Chris, most times when I've read about support swimmers, these guys are only in the water for an hour, are well rested and warm, and can get out of the water at anytime. The chance of the support swimmer needing rescue is probably close to nil.
I've also never had a support swimmer, but then I've never done a "solo" swim, only organized swims with or without kayak support. So I really don't have any practical knowledge or experience on how much having someone in the water with me would support me.
I've never used one because I would see it as a distraction, get in the way, and possibly couldn't keep up. I would have an issue with the escort swimmer falling behind or pulling ahead (for any reason). In addition, they haven't been allowed in the races that I've competed, so I wouldn't know.
One less thing to worry about.
Personally, I think that an escort swimmer is on par with an underwater streamer, ipod, watch, etc. It is an assistance to aid the swimmer. I don't judge or fault those that do. Its just how I feel about the issue.
Hi Team- another quick question- what about stinger suits ?? What category would that fall into ? Non standard ?? - though from the information I have read most argue that its non enhancing performance ?? Keep up the great work !!
Chris, you're missing the point of the support/escort swimmer. It's a swimmer who swims occasionally with a SOLO swimmer. You wouldn't have one in a race.
The bodies that allow support swimmers unanimously disallow the support swimmer to be ahead. I've heard of support swimmers who wore fins in order to keep up with the soloist. Again, if the support swimmer can't keep up, s/he can always get out.
Just because "support swimmer" is in any rules, doesn't mean a swimmer has to use one.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Chris, you're missing the point of the support/escort swimmer. It's a swimmer who swims occasionally with a SOLO swimmer. You wouldn't have one in a race.
The bodies that allow support swimmers unanimously disallow the support swimmer to be ahead. I've heard of support swimmers who wore fins in order to keep up with the soloist. Again, if the support swimmer can't keep up, s/he can always get out.
Just because "support swimmer" is in any rules, doesn't mean a swimmer has to use one.
You're kidding, right?
I more than understand the utilization of an escort swimmer for all of the reasons listed above (and maybe some later on).
You forget how long I've been at this game, and the success I've had as both a swimmer and a coach? There is very little that I haven't seen or done. :^o
My personal opinion is that I view the use of one as an artificial aid to assist the primary swimmer. By no means on the level of wearing a wet-suit, or drafting off a bow wake. It's more like wearing a jammer during an English Channel swim instead of a brief (an inside joke between myself and a peer).
If I was ever asked to be one; I'd certainly oblige and do it. I just choose not to on my own swims. Like I said earlier, I don't pass judgment on those who desire to do so. I was only offering this opinion because the spirit of these rules (as I read them) focuses on the lone swimmer and scrutinizes the validity of external factors such as those used in Diana Nyad's Florida Straits swim last summer. Checks and balances.
Come swim Masters tomorrow morning and we can discuss further......
I have never used a support swimmer on any of my swims, but I look a videos of EC swims and note in Ted Erickson's swim the use of an escort swimmer presuming that they would help motivate the swimmer when times are tough....this is an interesting element to the mix and because of tradition do we continue or change that???
Since @loneswimmer strongly encouraged the aspiring marathonswimmers to add their voices I would like to state, that I am very glad there finally is a set of rules, that I can refer to when talking about our sport.
I am an aspiring marathonswimmer from Germany, who just made the transfer from long distance pools swims to OW last summer, finished a couple of 5k races and is currently planning her first “real” swims (10k+). Even on our side of the world the DN-swim was covered by the media, but without any critical comments. Reading about the swim all I could think was “This is just not right!”, but that isn’t exactly a convincing position when talking to friends and coworkers who – knowing about my time spent in water – asked for my opinion. So I followed the discussion on this forum, was very happy about the different positions that helped me to form my own opinion, but also felt that it is hard to state that someone did not follow “the rules” or violated “the code” when there is a basic idea of what “the rules” are, but no document to refer to. The MSF Rules of Marathon Swimming finally state what I feel is the core of marathon swimming.
This is not only important for swims with big media interest but also for our own community. We had a very similar (though very quiet) discussion among German marathon swimmers last summer when Christof Wandratsch completed his 64k-swim across the length of Lake Constance as the first one doing so observed by the governing body accrediting swims in this lake and following their rules (which are basically EC-Rules with one minor local alteration). He was later attacked by a women claiming, she had been “the first” to do so, but she also admitted that she did not swim with an official observer, had (deliberately) touched her support boat during her swim and got help from a crewmember applying her sunscreen. The argument got settled shortly before courts (!) got involved.
So thank you all involved very much for your hard work to put together this set of Rules, which I feel are not only rules, but also a “Code of Conduct” which I will gladly follow in my upcoming swims.
You're kidding, right?
...
You forget how long I've been at this game, and the success I've had as both a swimmer and a coach? There is very little that I haven't seen or done. :^o
Chris, no disrespect meant or intended. Of course I know your history as swimmer and coach. But when you say something like...
You're kidding, right?
...
You forget how long I've been at this game, and the success I've had as both a swimmer and a coach? There is very little that I haven't seen or done. :^o
Chris, no disrespect meant or intended. Of course I know your history as swimmer and coach. But when you say something like...
In addition, they haven't been allowed in the races that I've competed, so I wouldn't know.
...you must see how I could have thought you misunderstood!
Which only means that I haven't used one because of the races I've done. I've never experienced the benefit of an escort in an actual event because they weren't allowed (USS/USMS/IMSA/FINA) or needed (EC).
I have read the rules very carefully and have decided that there is a loophole that I can take advantage of. Namely, since I am getting old and slow, I need to try to intimidate the other people in the race. Therefore, as long as it is made or rubber or silicone, I think I can wear a fierce looking Mexican wrestling mask and call it a swim cap, since there is no exact specification as to what dimensions constitute a swim cap.
Maybe I'll adopt a scary Spanish title for myself, as well. Something like "La trucha de alcantarillado feroz" ("The ferocious sewer trout")
-LBJ a.k.a. La trucha de alcantarillado feroz
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
@Ned Denison posted the following to the Channel Swimmers chat group:
The following was approved by the leadership committee of the club:
The Sandycove Island Swim Club will continue to maintain a list of swims of 5k or more (with a few shorter exceptions) completed by Cork swimmers and any swimmer in Cork (and Kerry up to Skellig/Valentia). This list will be based on organiser and swimmer reports and allow wetsuits and any other "noted exceptions" to general open water rules as sensible (example...the Dam to County Hall swim has a walking portage). The club will err on the side of inclusion unless there is a compelling set of reasons to exclude an entry.
Where the club is requested to provide an official accreditation...then the Marathon Swim Forum i]sic[/i rules will be used (with any swim exceptions noted.)
Just curious if "hundreds" of marathon swimmers have endorsed the rules or what percentage of members of this forum have endorsed the global rules?
Good question, Kent. Not sure about the total numbers who support them, but as far as I know, it's just you, Charlie Gravett, and Mike Cross on the other side.
@loneswimmer and I don't require forum members to agree with everything (or anything) we do or say -- indeed, we encourage spirited debate, as long as it remains reasonably civil and intelligent.
Forum members aren't required to support the MSF Rules. In fact, "Version 1.0" of the document, along with this thread (and other derivative threads such as the wristwatch thread) were intended as a round of public comment and feedback. We will be releasing "v1.1" shortly, based on the excellent feedback we received.
So we welcome any intelligent, well-reasoned commentary you might have, Kent. But so far I've gathered that you:
(1) Are "not a fan of the 'global' moniker."
(2) Think the CSA and CS&PF should "join forces" and "set the gold standard."
Two thoughts which seem to contradict each other. So I'm honestly not sure what to do with that feedback, Kent.
Donal, Andrew, Elaine, and I remain gratified at the widespread support the members of the marathon swimming community (both on this Forum and elsewhere) have expressed for the Rules. And we remain interested in any concrete, productive ideas for improving them.
Never give 'em credit @Kevin. His essential contention was that new rules weren't needed, etc, which is fine, but he slipped in some nice anti-Irish bigotry: "I have never had any trouble finding or understanding “the code” (other than Ireland"
Those who don't follow the Channel Swimmers chat group may have missed some of the context for the last few posts in this thread. So in the interest of being "fair and complete," and in case the Chat Group dissolves at some point, here's that context:
Charlie G. said:
Can some one tell me why we need these 'new' rules as proposed by the Global Marathon Swimming Organisation? Do the existing rules of the CSA Ltd; CS&PF, British Long Distance swimming Association and the Laws of swimming as published by the Amateur Swimming Association not cover all the points quite succinctly without any question of duplication or misinterpretation? Having swum Long Distance, or Open Water as the modernists wish to call it since 1957 competing in countless competitions and events domestic and further afield. As a qualified ASA official for pool and 'outdoors', an observer on several Channel swims, pilot for best part of one hundred Round Jersey and Jersey to France swims over nearly thirty years I see no requirement for a new set of rules to 'muddy the waters'. Have the afore mentioned governing bodies been approached for their views on these 'reinvented' laws? I doubt it. As well known and respected as the list of 'advisers' to this rehash are I fail to see the reason for yet another set of rules to confuse and dare I say it irritate, when they obviously have no power of enforcement. We all get along nicely thank you with the existing legislation without another quasi set-up. Or am I just being a grumpy old git along with my contemporary Capt. O? I do hope so, there just aren't enough grumpies in this game. Now there's a quasi organisation to consider!
Kent said:
I tend to agree with Charlie. Each swim has unique characteristics and attributes. The fundamental rules for the EC (with deviations existing there as well) are sufficient or at least lay a strong foundation for others to follow -- if they wish.
Mike Cross said:
I'm with Charlie, what a load of ol' bollocks
Needless to say, the discussion improved from that point.
Again, just to be "fair and complete." I actually think Charlie had some good points, and I personally wholeheartedly support a "quasi organization" of "grumpy old gits"-- to which I aspire to join someday.
If we stuck with what the "grumpy old gits" wanted and never grew as an organization or sport or community (or whatever) we'd still be swimming in those horrible quasi-wetsuit-wool wrestling outfits and not wearing goggles.
That being said, I don't see much diff btwn the MSF's proposed universal rules and what the EC governing bodies (plural) have. And I've only been a member of the Channel swimming chat group for about a year, but I've found less use out of that group because of the grumpy old gits. This forum is way more useful, cooperative, educational and community-ive (note to self: look up adjective for community).
And @evmo, if you're doing it right, you'll never feel old enough to call yourself a grumpy old git. What does @Leonard_Jansen say? How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? I love that and try to live it.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
This may be a different thread... not sure. But I would like to comment on the channel chat group comment. I have been on THAT list since inception, when it was called "smart groups". Email was nascent( prior to 2000) then and information was HARD to come by, especially for those of us 8 hours away. We actually MAILED and called... for booking spots for checking on swimmers! to book hotel rooms or BnB's.
The advent of the "chat group" was HUGE! It's contribution to sharing of information and questions and cheering on other swimmers kept me at my computer (shhh at work!) for many a swim, awaiting an email or a PHONE CALL about whether or not someone finished, pulled or what have you.
It still reaches people all over the world and is helpful. Not everyone is on FB, not everyone is on MSF or wants to be.
Channel chat group is the toddler, FB the "tween" and MSF the young adult.
Yes, there are "grumpy ol gits". Think of them as your grandparents.If they weren't there, neither would your parents be and then where would you be?
But we all learn from our parents and grandparents don't we?
The "rules' of EC swimming and of marathon swimming and yes of POOL swimming have changed over the years. The method of communicating those rules will and has morphed as well.
It is a good thing to have uniform standards for marathon swims outside the EC swim rules...having said that I find the MSF a much more constructive site/group than the channel swimmers google group today..(used to be better in my view) not sure why that group's constructiveness has deterioriated over the past few years but I find those seeking/asking questions get shouted down or ridiculed often times...not very helpful. I also find the ongoing anamosity between the two EC certifying groups is another reason I seldom check the site anymore...Putting aside politics... One of the most successful pilots along with his brother happens to be with the CSA...and their father piloted Lynn Cox...and the other very successful pilot is with the CS&PF..There is some good information in the archives though to check out.
Based on feedback we've received over the past month in this thread, the wristwatch thread, and via private communication, Donal, Elaine, Andrew and I are announcing Version 1.1 of the MSF Rules:
Simple timekeeping devices (chronometers) are now listed as Standard Equipment.
Glow sticks are now listed as Standard Equipment.
A new section explaining the nuances of "Nonstandard Equipment," and distinguishing between "performance-enhancing" and "non-performance enhancing" nonstandard equipment.
Data-logging (but non-transmitting) electronic devices are now categorized as non-performance-enhancing (but still nonstandard) equipment.
So - the changes in v1.1 are fairly minor in the grand scheme of things, but, we hope, reasonable and clarifying. And may all the Timex Ironman owners among us remain confident they are staying within the spirit of the sport
A thought about one of the MSF rules: The rule about swim caps states that they must be made of either latex or silicone. Would it be a "bad" thing to also allow them to be made of any fabric that is legal for swimsuits? I ask because it occurred to me that in a race like the Key West swim, where the water is very warm, a fabric cap would be desirable to keep the sun off your head, but also allow more water to circulate past the head to keep your brain from baking in your skull. I often have to take off my silicone cap in the pool when going hard because it feels like my head is melting.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
@Leonard_Jansen - Good suggestion. Seems reasonable to me. The existing rule was meant to exclude neoprene, but we hadn't considered anyone would prefer textile caps.
N.B., CS&PF rules specify latex or silicone; CSA rules only specify no thermal protection.
So...if you want to use the MSF rules for a swim, how do you deal with things like local lore/protocol/superstition? What if to appease the gods (read: your boat pilot and the locals who are looking at you like you're a moron), you have to have a shot of vodka prior to your swim? (Lake Baikal)
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
MSF Rules prohibit WADA-listed PED's, of which, I think, alcohol is one, but the situation you're describing doesn't strike me as egregious. In writing the rules we tried to keep it flexible for local circumstances.
But to address your general question, it's actually pretty simple:
If you to want to follow MSF Rules verbatim, then say that's what you're doing, and nothing more needs to be said. It is understood as "standard conduct."
If there's a circumstance that justifies a modification of MSF Rules (which doesn't violate the spirit of the sport), then just state what you're doing differently. No biggie.
Transparency and specificity of stated conduct are what we're trying to promote, not blind dogmatic adherence to every single last detail.
Thanks @evmo. I bring this up as my wife when she ran her Lake Baikal half-marathon was so looking forward to the pre-race custom of having a shot for the Lake. Unfortunately, for her year, the race didn't get the vodka sponsor it had in years past; a dairy sponsored the race. So Fembot and all her fellow runners had to have a shot of milk prior to the run. Eww!
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
"If geographic obstacles prevent the swimmer from clearing the water at the finish, the swimmer may finish by touching part of the natural shore."
Perhaps consider revising this to include man-made shorelines (such as retaining walls). Think about most of the "shore" around Manhattan.
Or, consider the case where a lattice of mussel-encrusted piers support a boardwalk. I wouldn't want to have to try to navigate through those, especially in a heavy surf.
David Yudovin has endorsed the MSF Rules of Marathon Swimming.
David is an hono(u)r swimmer in both the International Swimming Hall of Fame and International Marathon Swimming Hall of Fame; he is, among other things, the first person to swim the Tsugaru Strait in Japan, and the first person to swim the Santa Barbara Channel from Santa Cruz Island. He was prominently featured in the prologue to Lynne Cox's Swimming to Antarctica, as well as the documentary film DRIVEN. The full list of his incredible achievements in our sport can be viewed at DavidYudovinChannelSwimmer.com.
We appreciate David's support. Indeed, it is swimmers like him -- adventurers in uncharted waters -- for whom the MSF Rules were written.
I (re)read the Rules. Read the definitions of standard and nonstandard equipment, to incl. both classes of nonstandard equipment. Also searched the forums to see if this already came up.
How would you marathon swimmers view someone wearing a brace for their elbow, similar to a tennis elbow strap or a compression sleeve for the elbow? "non-performance-enhancing nonstandard equipment"? OK to wear in swims that follow MSF rules?
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
@IronMike - IDK, have never used it personally but have seen swimmers wearing it sometimes and have noticed that many Race Directors seem to ban it outright. I feel like USA Swimming rules have the best explanation
"The intent of this rule is that no tape be allowed unless it is needed
for valid medical reasons. However, regardless of any medical reason, tape should not be
allowed if it will provide any kind of competitive advantage to a swimmer. For example, a bandaid
applied to a cut or an open wound would be considered necessary for medical reasons, but
would not provide any competitive advantage to a swimmer and therefore should be allowed.
However, if a swimmer was required to tape all of his fingers together for a good and valid
medical reason, it should not be allowed because regardless of the medical reason, it would
provide a competitive advantage to the swimmer. One of the more common types of taping is
known as kinesio taping and although there may be a valid medical reason for using it, it is
considered to provide the swimmer with a competitive advantage and should not be allowed. In
all cases, the use of tape can only be approved by the referee and only if it does not provide a
competitive advantage to the swimmer."
@IronMike - while I have you, what is the swim in Lake Baikal with mandatory vodka shots? This one sounds exactly in my wheelhouse and I've been looking for an excuse to get there!
jmm234 said: @IronMike - while I have you, what is the swim in Lake Baikal with mandatory vodka shots? This one sounds exactly in my wheelhouse and I've been looking for an excuse to get there!
The lake Baikal ice marathon used to require a vodka shot right before the run, but then the vodka company that sponsored the marathon stopped sponsoring them. The year my wife went (2011?), the sponsor was a milk company, so everyone took a "shot" of milk. Yuck.
I've researched swims at lake Baikal and even found a thread about some Russian guy trying to organize regular annual swims there. My attempts to find that person have failed. I'm also trying to meet with other Russian open water swimmers, but frankly there aren't many in Moscow. (The waters here...no.) I found a guy in St Pete whom I've been trying to get into these forums. No luck yet.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Comments
http://www.weather.com/weather-films/shows/grid-breakers/ep04.html
I've never used one because I would see it as a distraction, get in the way, and possibly couldn't keep up. I would have an issue with the escort swimmer falling behind or pulling ahead (for any reason). In addition, they haven't been allowed in the races that I've competed, so I wouldn't know.
One less thing to worry about.
Personally, I think that an escort swimmer is on par with an underwater streamer, ipod, watch, etc. It is an assistance to aid the swimmer. I don't judge or fault those that do. Its just how I feel about the issue.
The bodies that allow support swimmers unanimously disallow the support swimmer to be ahead. I've heard of support swimmers who wore fins in order to keep up with the soloist. Again, if the support swimmer can't keep up, s/he can always get out.
Just because "support swimmer" is in any rules, doesn't mean a swimmer has to use one.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
You're kidding, right?
I more than understand the utilization of an escort swimmer for all of the reasons listed above (and maybe some later on).
You forget how long I've been at this game, and the success I've had as both a swimmer and a coach? There is very little that I haven't seen or done. :^o
My personal opinion is that I view the use of one as an artificial aid to assist the primary swimmer. By no means on the level of wearing a wet-suit, or drafting off a bow wake. It's more like wearing a jammer during an English Channel swim instead of a brief (an inside joke between myself and a peer).
If I was ever asked to be one; I'd certainly oblige and do it. I just choose not to on my own swims. Like I said earlier, I don't pass judgment on those who desire to do so. I was only offering this opinion because the spirit of these rules (as I read them) focuses on the lone swimmer and scrutinizes the validity of external factors such as those used in Diana Nyad's Florida Straits swim last summer. Checks and balances.
Come swim Masters tomorrow morning and we can discuss further......
Chris
"I never met a shark I didn't like"
I am an aspiring marathonswimmer from Germany, who just made the transfer from long distance pools swims to OW last summer, finished a couple of 5k races and is currently planning her first “real” swims (10k+). Even on our side of the world the DN-swim was covered by the media, but without any critical comments. Reading about the swim all I could think was “This is just not right!”, but that isn’t exactly a convincing position when talking to friends and coworkers who – knowing about my time spent in water – asked for my opinion. So I followed the discussion on this forum, was very happy about the different positions that helped me to form my own opinion, but also felt that it is hard to state that someone did not follow “the rules” or violated “the code” when there is a basic idea of what “the rules” are, but no document to refer to. The MSF Rules of Marathon Swimming finally state what I feel is the core of marathon swimming.
This is not only important for swims with big media interest but also for our own community. We had a very similar (though very quiet) discussion among German marathon swimmers last summer when Christof Wandratsch completed his 64k-swim across the length of Lake Constance as the first one doing so observed by the governing body accrediting swims in this lake and following their rules (which are basically EC-Rules with one minor local alteration). He was later attacked by a women claiming, she had been “the first” to do so, but she also admitted that she did not swim with an official observer, had (deliberately) touched her support boat during her swim and got help from a crewmember applying her sunscreen. The argument got settled shortly before courts (!) got involved.
So thank you all involved very much for your hard work to put together this set of Rules, which I feel are not only rules, but also a “Code of Conduct” which I will gladly follow in my upcoming swims.
Thanks so much for doing this. Helps set the record straight. I appreciate all your hard work.
Chris, no disrespect meant or intended. Of course I know your history as swimmer and coach. But when you say something like... ...you must see how I could have thought you misunderstood!
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Which only means that I haven't used one because of the races I've done. I've never experienced the benefit of an escort in an actual event because they weren't allowed (USS/USMS/IMSA/FINA) or needed (EC).
Maybe I'll adopt a scary Spanish title for myself, as well. Something like "La trucha de alcantarillado feroz" ("The ferocious sewer trout")
-LBJ a.k.a. La trucha de alcantarillado feroz
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
"I never met a shark I didn't like"
Edit: Possibly Diana Nyad too - not sure, though.
loneswimmer.com
@loneswimmer and I don't require forum members to agree with everything (or anything) we do or say -- indeed, we encourage spirited debate, as long as it remains reasonably civil and intelligent.
Forum members aren't required to support the MSF Rules. In fact, "Version 1.0" of the document, along with this thread (and other derivative threads such as the wristwatch thread) were intended as a round of public comment and feedback. We will be releasing "v1.1" shortly, based on the excellent feedback we received.
So we welcome any intelligent, well-reasoned commentary you might have, Kent. But so far I've gathered that you:
(1) Are "not a fan of the 'global' moniker."
(2) Think the CSA and CS&PF should "join forces" and "set the gold standard."
Two thoughts which seem to contradict each other. So I'm honestly not sure what to do with that feedback, Kent.
Donal, Andrew, Elaine, and I remain gratified at the widespread support the members of the marathon swimming community (both on this Forum and elsewhere) have expressed for the Rules. And we remain interested in any concrete, productive ideas for improving them.
Who is that ?
loneswimmer.com
Charlie G. said:
Kent said:
Mike Cross said:
Needless to say, the discussion improved from that point.
Again, just to be "fair and complete." I actually think Charlie had some good points, and I personally wholeheartedly support a "quasi organization" of "grumpy old gits"-- to which I aspire to join someday.
cheers.
That being said, I don't see much diff btwn the MSF's proposed universal rules and what the EC governing bodies (plural) have. And I've only been a member of the Channel swimming chat group for about a year, but I've found less use out of that group because of the grumpy old gits. This forum is way more useful, cooperative, educational and community-ive (note to self: look up adjective for community).
And @evmo, if you're doing it right, you'll never feel old enough to call yourself a grumpy old git. What does @Leonard_Jansen say? How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? I love that and try to live it.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
The advent of the "chat group" was HUGE! It's contribution to sharing of information and questions and cheering on other swimmers kept me at my computer (shhh at work!) for many a swim, awaiting an email or a PHONE CALL about whether or not someone finished, pulled or what have you.
It still reaches people all over the world and is helpful. Not everyone is on FB, not everyone is on MSF or wants to be.
Channel chat group is the toddler, FB the "tween" and MSF the young adult.
Yes, there are "grumpy ol gits". Think of them as your grandparents.If they weren't there, neither would your parents be and then where would you be?
But we all learn from our parents and grandparents don't we?
The "rules' of EC swimming and of marathon swimming and yes of POOL swimming have changed over the years. The method of communicating those rules will and has morphed as well.
"I never met a shark I didn't like"
http://marathonswimmers.org/rules/
In the interest of transparency, we are keeping an archived version of v1.0 here:
http://marathonswimmers.org/rules/version-history/1.0/
And a log of all the specific changes made here:
http://marathonswimmers.org/rules/version-history/changes-full/
A few highlights:
- Simple timekeeping devices (chronometers) are now listed as Standard Equipment.
- Glow sticks are now listed as Standard Equipment.
- A new section explaining the nuances of "Nonstandard Equipment," and distinguishing between "performance-enhancing" and "non-performance enhancing" nonstandard equipment.
- Data-logging (but non-transmitting) electronic devices are now categorized as non-performance-enhancing (but still nonstandard) equipment.
So - the changes in v1.1 are fairly minor in the grand scheme of things, but, we hope, reasonable and clarifying. And may all the Timex Ironman owners among us remain confident they are staying within the spirit of the sportWhat is the definition of "veteran"?
loneswimmer.com
http://www.gizmag.com/cod-fish-blood-freezing/30717/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=bf5ff1e0ed-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-bf5ff1e0ed-90370566
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
They have announced they will be using MSF Rules as their standard swim conduct.
http://sueno88.com/
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
@Leonard_Jansen - Good suggestion. Seems reasonable to me. The existing rule was meant to exclude neoprene, but we hadn't considered anyone would prefer textile caps.
N.B., CS&PF rules specify latex or silicone; CSA rules only specify no thermal protection.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
But to address your general question, it's actually pretty simple:
If you to want to follow MSF Rules verbatim, then say that's what you're doing, and nothing more needs to be said. It is understood as "standard conduct."
If there's a circumstance that justifies a modification of MSF Rules (which doesn't violate the spirit of the sport), then just state what you're doing differently. No biggie.
Transparency and specificity of stated conduct are what we're trying to promote, not blind dogmatic adherence to every single last detail.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Perhaps consider revising this to include man-made shorelines (such as retaining walls). Think about most of the "shore" around Manhattan.
Or, consider the case where a lattice of mussel-encrusted piers support a boardwalk. I wouldn't want to have to try to navigate through those, especially in a heavy surf.
David is an hono(u)r swimmer in both the International Swimming Hall of Fame and International Marathon Swimming Hall of Fame; he is, among other things, the first person to swim the Tsugaru Strait in Japan, and the first person to swim the Santa Barbara Channel from Santa Cruz Island. He was prominently featured in the prologue to Lynne Cox's Swimming to Antarctica, as well as the documentary film DRIVEN. The full list of his incredible achievements in our sport can be viewed at DavidYudovinChannelSwimmer.com.
We appreciate David's support. Indeed, it is swimmers like him -- adventurers in uncharted waters -- for whom the MSF Rules were written.
For the full list of endorsees, see here:
http://marathonswimmers.org/rules/13_endorsements/
If you're not already on the list, you can add your name by leaving a comment at the bottom of the linked page.
http://marathonswimmers.org/rules/13_endorsements/
I (re)read the Rules. Read the definitions of standard and nonstandard equipment, to incl. both classes of nonstandard equipment. Also searched the forums to see if this already came up.
How would you marathon swimmers view someone wearing a brace for their elbow, similar to a tennis elbow strap or a compression sleeve for the elbow? "non-performance-enhancing nonstandard equipment"? OK to wear in swims that follow MSF rules?
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
@IronMike - I don't think kinesio tape is allowed so I think compression sleeve or brace wouldn't be either?
Why is kinesio tape not allowed? Is it performance enhancing? I'm asking because I don't know.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
@IronMike - IDK, have never used it personally but have seen swimmers wearing it sometimes and have noticed that many Race Directors seem to ban it outright. I feel like USA Swimming rules have the best explanation
"The intent of this rule is that no tape be allowed unless it is needed
for valid medical reasons. However, regardless of any medical reason, tape should not be
allowed if it will provide any kind of competitive advantage to a swimmer. For example, a bandaid
applied to a cut or an open wound would be considered necessary for medical reasons, but
would not provide any competitive advantage to a swimmer and therefore should be allowed.
However, if a swimmer was required to tape all of his fingers together for a good and valid
medical reason, it should not be allowed because regardless of the medical reason, it would
provide a competitive advantage to the swimmer. One of the more common types of taping is
known as kinesio taping and although there may be a valid medical reason for using it, it is
considered to provide the swimmer with a competitive advantage and should not be allowed. In
all cases, the use of tape can only be approved by the referee and only if it does not provide a
competitive advantage to the swimmer."
@IronMike - while I have you, what is the swim in Lake Baikal with mandatory vodka shots? This one sounds exactly in my wheelhouse and I've been looking for an excuse to get there!
Thank you all for your viewpoints.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
The lake Baikal ice marathon used to require a vodka shot right before the run, but then the vodka company that sponsored the marathon stopped sponsoring them. The year my wife went (2011?), the sponsor was a milk company, so everyone took a "shot" of milk. Yuck.
I've researched swims at lake Baikal and even found a thread about some Russian guy trying to organize regular annual swims there. My attempts to find that person have failed. I'm also trying to meet with other Russian open water swimmers, but frankly there aren't many in Moscow. (The waters here...no.) I found a guy in St Pete whom I've been trying to get into these forums. No luck yet.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams