Honestly I think the whole feeding issue is a red herring.
What you say about the blogger is probably true, but to me the 7.5 hours without feeding is what got this started. It was the first thing that came out, while the swim was still happening, that made people think something fishy was going on.
Frankly, without that blog update, I don't think all the questioning of the legitimacy of the swim happens.
I'm back home and have a lot of catching up to do. Can someone please explain to the world how a swimmer going 1.5 miles per hour can buck a current like the Gulf Stream, and only get blown 45 miles to the east from Hemmingway Marina to Smathers Beach? http://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/GLBhycom1-12/navo/glfmexspdcur_nowcast_anim30d.gif
By the way, I promise to buy a cup of coffee for the 250th person to use the term, "haters."
Ron Collins
Clearwater, Florida
DistanceMatters.com
A question...is the the Cuba to Florida swim under the accepted rules of continuous swim with no jelly fish suit for 100 plus miles in the current of the Florida Straits, etc....a truly unassisted swim by channel rules even possible?
This swim was to take 60-70 hours based on speed of swimmer. Sleep deprivation, feeding issues, jelly fish, hypothermia, age of this swimmer all are major issues before she jumped in water. To have failed several times and no one really being successful, causes one to think about it from the "get go". The feeding issue just does not make sense as that was an elaborate statement not a simple misquote in her blog. As Ron and others have stated mucho times, the swimmer speed in the "dark" just does not make sense. I really want to believe her but having done some of these long swims, I just do not see it as possible even with perfeect conditions. Its a great story...and that is all it is in my mine.
I want to pull out one particular part of Mr. Adams article:
Rules for a crossing like hers were to be created by the first person to succeed, she added, noting that she was following "Florida Straits Rules" during her swim, written for her by Munatones, a respected international swimming expert and former observer on three of Nyad's previous failed attempts to swim the Florida Straits.
Under those rules, swimmers may use a "stinger suit" to protect them from jellyfish.
Morrison said he and other swimmers on the call had never heard of the Florida Straits Rules and that Nyad should have publicized them before her swim.
The rules were drawn up after jellyfish sabotaged one of Nyad's previous failed attempts, Munatones said, noting that some channel crossings have different rules covering exceptional risks.
For example, swimmers attempting the 16-mile Cook Strait separating the North and South Islands of New Zealand are allowed to get out of the water briefly if sharks come too close.
"The rules are always based on safety," said Munatones. "If you have any hope in getting across the Florida Straits, we believe you need a stinger suit. It's not doable in the traditional way."
Munatones said he would be distributing copies of the "rules of engagement" for the Florida Straits to the media and the swimming community.
So, @Munatones is saying there's a set of "Florida Straits Rules," which he wrote himself, but apparently kept private (for reasons unknown) until now.
Some of these unresolved questions may be addressed by the release of the navigator's logs and observer's logs, which Diana's team has committed to doing immediately.
That gets to the heart of what still bothers me. As a former marathon swimmer, I know that well-kept logs can be posted very shortly after a swim, maybe even within minutes. Hours at most. It’s well over a week and no logs--or did I miss something? Ms. Nyad claims that neither she nor her captain know how to "upload" (see "Nyad Remains Defiant"). I’m sure, though, that they have countless friends and supporters who do. So where are the logs and why haven’t we seen them?
DN said on CNN last night that "We've provided now all our logs."
In fact, none of the logs have been released, yet, that I am aware of.
Does this surprise anyone here?
This whole situation makes me pretty uncomfortable. I know others have said essentially the same thing, probably more eloquently than I will, but I feel the need to rant anyway.
This should have been a triumphant for our sport. Personally, I could have lived with the stinger suit and the mask, I think she said she was going to use those well before she jumped in. But she and her team (as a whole, not some of the individuals like @b9chris who have contributed within this threat) have been nothing but duplicitous, vague, and contentious. Every question, however benign and well intentioned, has been viewed as a personal attack. There is no acknowledgement that her credibility has reason to be doubted, given the boat touching incident from last year, and the late reporting of her boarding a vessel for, what, 10 hours last year.
Because of the way Ms. Nyad has engaged the media (kudos to her for that, I guess), and the way that the media and the general public have latched on to this swim as such a triumphant moment, anyone showing any doubt is viewed as a cynic, much like Paul Kimmage was during the Lance Armstrong era. (I find this a big double standard given how people view doping in baseball and football, but that's a different rant for a different day.)
A lot of people that I interact with know that I am an open water swimmer. They don't know a lot about the sport, nor do I expect them to. But because they know that I engage in similar activities, I get asked about the swim. I think that she completed the swim, but I've lost respect for Ms. Nyad. I don't like having to sound like such a malcontent about it.
There have been many inspirational swims that I can think of in the few years I've started swimming further and further distances. This morning, I read the account of Guri and Lake Willoughby. Darren Miller, the more I see his presence on here and read his blog and hear about his successful swims, sounds like a supremely high class human being. Everyone that I've reached out to within the endurance sports world, swimmers or otherwise, has been nothing but accomodating and helpful. But then you hear Ms. Nyad talking about how pleased she was that Penny Palfrey and Chloe McCardel were unsuccessful in their swims. I understand wanting to be first, but it's petty to hope for the failure of others so that you can be better.
I'm glad that our voice is being heard, even if it seems to be largely being dismissed and ridiculed. I'm glad that our sport is getting exposure. But it saddens me that someone so selfish and petty is getting so glorified in (inter)national media.
Capt John Duke here from support
vessel Phat Dolphin the kayakers support vessel.
B9 Chris you state there was a chaotic scene of volunteers ect I take exception to your statement as if you were the professional on hand , I personally do not remember you either. Aboard each vessel I saw dedicated mariners doing their job, many USCG licensed Captains with years of ocean going experience providing a home base for each of the specialty groups those being kayakers, shark swimmers,,media and small vessel transport crew. Again I reiterate we were a team and if any of you "swimmers" expect to do any great venture in the water you better have that team behind you and make sure that team is qualified.
Our particular vessel was within 100-300 yards of the Voyager and Diana Nyad at all times except during the storm where in a professional way we went into "squall protical and each kayaker and shark swimmer did their professional best and winds abated we proceded with standard operations, kayaks back into the water and shark swimmers out .
So my reading your posts I see there is just a lot of misunderstanding of the Gulf Stream, currents, eddies and waves mixed in.
These professional mariners did great as a team
Call me a cynic (and I really need to let this go) but perhaps the logs are still being written or edited. Is it possible the website updates have been edited post swim?
I ask b/c this morning upon rereading the updates posted at http://www.diananyad.com/blog/2am-first-feeding
this post has appeared to explain the "misquote" about the 7 1/2 hr no-feeding discrepancy.
First Feeding Since Storm
2:00am Monday September 2, 2013. Swim time: 41:00
Reported by: Candace Hogan
Voyager on VHF radio communicating to the flotilla 41 hours into the swim:
Diana came in for the first time since we've resumed formation, for a feeding. She knows where she is; she understands what's going on. Almost 90 percent [coherent] she asked me specific questions.
Another boat responds: God speed, Diana.
The original detailed version of that 7.5 hrs remains, which I find curious, but that post was so widely read and quoted, I guess it would have looked suspect if that had disappeared.
I wasn't looking for trouble, really. I just was trying to find a post I recalled reading about her crew telling Diana at one point that she was not going to finish as soon as they had projected earlier for some reason. I thought the gist of it was they were trying to keep her spirits up, I recalled no mention during the swim of the fact that she had lucked onto this super fast current that was pushing her to shore at record pace.
The post I was looking for is no longer there. Did I imagine it? By any chance does anyone else recall reading something like that? Did anyone happen to copy all the updates posted from her crew in their entirety? It is possible my recall of the post is incorrect. Just curious if anyone else out here saw something like that.
Again I reiterate we were a team and if any of you "swimmers" expect to do any great venture in the water you better have that team behind you and make sure that team is qualified.
I don't think you will find a soul in this forum that will debate that statement.
Obviously, I wasn't involved in the swim, but @b9chris could have had a vastly different experience with this venture, given his very different role. I don't doubt that the team on the water was polished and competent in supporting the swimmer. That may or may not mean that the communications he was trying to manage and funnel were just as smooth.
I don't know what happened, just saying that different people can view the same experiences differently, for whatever reason.
Munatones said:
For example, swimmers attempting the 16-mile Cook Strait separating the North and South Islands of New Zealand are allowed to get out of the water briefly if sharks come too close.
Evmo: Question on this quote from Munatones you posted. Does the 16-mile Cook Straight swim fall under EC rules? If so: 1. When is a shark "too close" - is there distance given and/or who determines "close"; 2. Does the swimmer receive help aboard the boat or under her/his own power; 3. Is there a time limit the swimmer is on board until the swim is declared incomplete?
Capt John Duke here from support
vessel Phat Dolphin the kayakers support vessel.
Capt Duke: I've heard a lot about providing (or rather, demanding) logs. As the Capt of the kayak support vessel, Phat Dolphin, what type of logs (if any) were you required to keep; and in general what was normally recorded for your support vessel (kayaks in/out, time, lat/lon, etc)? Were these hand written logs, typed (laptop/ipad), combination of the two?
Evmo: Question on this quote from Munatones you posted. Does the 16-mile Cook Straight swim fall under EC rules? If so: 1. When is a shark "too close" - is there distance given and/or who determines "close"; 2. Does the swimmer receive help aboard the boat or under her/his own power; 3. Is there a time limit the swimmer is on board until the swim is declared incomplete?
I don't know. You could ask Phil Rush - http://cookstraitswim.org.nz - or Steve, who was the one who mentioned it.
Stuart on the trip accross I kept a "real" chart with real way points hand written though not as many as I would have liked to, approxamately 4 total between Marina Hemingway and Smathers Beach
The lazy mans way points and present location were always in front of myself and Captain Scott Thomas via flat screen
The chart I have is Havana to Tampa Bay 11420
My marks include gps marks with dates and times , simple.
Kayaker had 3 kayaks aboard with two kayaks with Diana all the time, every 1 1/2 hour we would approach Diana and Voyager within a safe distance release the third Kayaker to change up with another so kayakers were paddling the shark shield
1 1/2 hours then rotating out for 3 hours.
We had six kayakers aboard all very qualified having worked in the kayak excursion industry for years. We stuck to our schedule thouroghly so as all could get fed and slept.
There were a total of 5 support vessels .
Stuart,
Think of English Channel rules as simply a benchmark for open water standards for unassisted swims. In general, to do a swim unassisted, you look to that list of rules unless something else is provided. The Channel was one of the first places where battles between rubber suits and just a swimmer in a swimsuit against the elements was taken up, so Webb's completion offered some basic guidelines for unassisted swims. I would not recommend ale or brandy, and porpoise grease is in short supply nowadays.I'm glad Paul Boyton's rubber suit isn't our standard for swims!
When Chloe attempted the Florida swim, she set out the rules she would try to swim by ahead of time, and many pointed out that since there was controversy last year, Nyad should have prepared similar rules before her swim. http://openwaterswimming.eu/node/8279
Since Nyad's statements last year were not consistent with the reality of the swim, and this time she has said that nobody touched her when in fact they did, it appears she is operating under a different set of rules. If this set of rules is published ahead of time, an impartial observer can make sure that there is compliance during the event. Since there was no such publication, and no observer appointed to enforce published rules, we refer to EC rules because there is nothing else to go on. She certainly did not do the swim "unassisted" under published definitions of the term, or under EC rules.
Based on part tragedies in the Channel and other swims, and a simple understanding of nutrition for marathon swimming, I'm surprised more people haven't questioned the 7-hour break in hydration and nutrition while in incredibly salty waters.
Stuart on the trip accross I kept a "reat" chart with real way points hand written though not as many as I would have liked to, approxamately 4 total between Marina Hemingway and Smathers Beach
The lazy mans way points and present location were always in front of myself and Captain Scott Thomas via flat screen
The chart I have is Havana to Tampa Bay 11420
My marks include gps marks with dates and times , simple.
Kayaker had 3 kayaks aboard with two kayaks with Diana all the time, every 1 1/2 hour we would approach Diana and Voyager within a safe distance release the third Kayaker to change up with another so kayakers were paddling the shark shield
1 1/2 hours then rotating out for 3 hours.
We had six kayakers aboard all very qualified having worked in the kayak excursion industry for years. We stuck to our schedule thouroghly so as all could get fed and slept
Thanks Capt Duke. Got it and that all is reasonable. Primarily one vessel, Captain Thomas, recording/time stamping gps lat/lon? And gotta love those kayak'ers, w here would long distance swimmers be without them? I've read that Diana went without food or water for 7+ hours. I recall her being nauseous and was concerned she would become dehydrated and be pulled out. I can see not eating, hydration is critical obviously. Was there a period of time longer than hour, two, three, ... where she swam without hydrating?
Stuart,
Think of English Channel rules as simply a benchmark for open water standards for unassisted swims. In general, to do a swim unassisted, you look to that list of rules unless something else is provided.
CoachDC. Thanks. Given the scruitiny of long distance swims, seems like EC rules are much more than a benchmark. And every swim has assistance and it takes a team to guide the swimmer to a successful swim, it's the type and amount that seems to be in question. This is why i asked about the Cook swim. I'm not a channel swimmer, but given every argument I've read, the Cook swim violates EC Channel rules allowing the swimmer to board the support boat, probably helped on board (i.e. touched) until shark danger clears. If this swim falls under EC rules to be a valid swim, then clearly there are exceptions to the rules or benchmark for reasons of safety. I suspect there was a first (2nd, 3rd) Cook swim, sharks encountered, swimmer pulled until danger cleared - then continued on his/her journey, and not disqualified or dismissed. Only looking for clarification and a little history on exceptions (if any) for swimmer safety.
No copy machines, digital cameras around?
Not able to get the gps data from the machine?
Still don't know how to upload files?
Still claiming an unassisted crossing?
So clumsy in those things but they were able to pick the freak north bound current.
I don't know what to believe any more if DN & co say something.
The GPS lat/lon points have always been available. http://www.diananyad.com/swim/currentswim As for all the logs you are looking for, current, wind, feeding, hydration, etc - maybe others? Given Capt Duke's response there a combination of hand written and digital - takes time to compile info in a way its in proper context, scan, upload, print, etc This data may already have been provided to those reviewing, and not made public just yet.
In the context of long distance channel swims, I think it's fair to say every swimmer has "assistance" - food, water, navigation. They may not necessarily be touched, but someone prepares, touches and delivers what they need to sustain their swim, as well as guide their way to a successful crossing.
And every swim has assistance and it takes a team to guide the swimmer to a successful swim, it's the type and amount that seems to be in question. This is why i asked about the Cook swim. I'm not a channel swimmer, but given every argument I've read, the Cook swim violates EC Channel rules allowing the swimmer to board the support boat, probably helped on board (i.e. touched) until shark danger clears. If this swim falls under EC rules to be a valid swim, then clearly there are exceptions to the rules or benchmark for reasons of safety.
There are regional exceptions, but a swim that benefits from one of these exceptions should not be compared to others for "record" status, nor should they qualify as "non-assisted"
Plenty more where that came from. That's one of the milder ones.
That one came from a guy "best known as the lead guitarist of the Jonas Brothers" (according to wiki), so the hordes of teenage girls wielding eggs should be easy to spot.
@godzillaboat I hope our discussion has not given you or anyone else the impression that we are questioning the qualifications, hard work, or dedication of any of the crew on board, "observers" excepted. Your team put a lot of people out on/in the water for over two days and kept everyone safe - that in itself is a laudable task.
I don't wear a wetsuit; it gives the ocean a sporting chance.
There are regional exceptions, but a swim that benefits from one of these exceptions should not be compared to others for "record" status, nor should they qualify as "non-assisted"
Thanks David. The Cuba-Florida swim seems to fall under "regional swim" and exceptions were made for health and safety of the swimmer, Diana Nyad. So in the Cook swim, if swimmer boarded the boat for safety, would be classified as an "assisted" swim - or not a "non-assisted" swim since the assistance was beyond the scope of delivering food, water, and navigation? How would this type of swim (Cook swim) be classified and presented for the record?
"The community has already decided that Susie Maroney’s 1997 swim of the same distance, but with a shark cage, is of a lesser value than Nyad’s with all of the above mentioned criteria. Where do those restrictions fall next?"http://swimswam.com/whats-next-diana-nyad-conversation/
I'd like to go on the record saying that I DON'T believe that doing a marathon swim with a shark cage is a lesser record than doing a marathon swim with shark divers. I have serious concerns about the direction some swimmers are going in and the idea that we're not questioning the use of shark divers.
While Maroney's time may have benefited from the use of the shark cage, to me her swim plan seems like it may be less tainted by the potential for harm to animals, which I feel is an important consideration in any swim plan.
Some good thoughts indeed. A few more things to add:
1) Australians use to do quite a few marathon swims in shark cages, so this was a pretty natural choice for Maroney for this swim. Maroney was trained for a while by Des Renford, who crossed the English Channel 19 times in 19 attempts. He, along with many Australians, participated in many marathon swimming contests off the coast of Australia, and a shark cage was mandatory in quite a few of those swims. What's more, we are more technologically advanced today than when Maroney did her swim in 1997. If she was still doing marathon swims today, it's highly likely that she wouldn't have used a shark cage.
2) Much of the press coverage on this swim is based in the USA. It is unlikely that they'll do anything to celebrate Maroney, Penny Palfrey, or Chloe McCardel, despite the absolutely incredible accomplishments of all 3 swimmers.
Specifically regarding Maroney, the spin seems to go in the direction regarding the validity of the shark cage, but it's unlikely that you'll read much in the current press that she was a blistering fast marathon swimmer.....among the best of all-time. Just over 17 hours in a double crossing of the English Channel, won MIMS 3 times, and almost ran down Tracey Wickham in a relatively short 7.6K race when Wickham made a comeback as a marathon swimmer over 20 years ago. Keep in mind that Wickham held both the 400 & 800 meter freestyle world records for about 9 years until Janet Evans broke both records. That's the kind of speed Maroney had.....which really should lead some in the press to take a very detailed look at the currents on Nyad's crossing, and not concentrate so much on the validity of a shark cage in 1997.
Some of these unresolved questions may be addressed by the release of the navigator's logs and observer's logs, which Diana's team has committed to doing immediately.
That gets to the heart of what still bothers me. As a former marathon swimmer, I know that well-kept logs can be posted very shortly after a swim, maybe even within minutes. Hours at most. It’s well over a week and no logs--or did I miss something? Ms. Nyad claims that neither she nor her captain know how to "upload" (see "Nyad Remains Defiant"). I’m sure, though, that they have countless friends and supporters who do. So where are the logs and why haven’t we seen them?
--Daniel Slosberg
Thank you, @danslos. I've been wondering the same thing. Where are the logs and why haven't we seen them?
--Anne Cleveland
Nyad, who was patient and in good spirits while answering numerous detailed questions from colleagues and reporters, said that during "this record-breaking swim I never touched the boat, not even an inadvertent touch."
At 1:13 her shoulder touches the boat and she pushes herself from the boat.
I think your starting to look silly now.
A little, perhaps, but her team is the one that had to have provided the footage. To me, it shows how little everyone was paying attention to a rule they claimed she held paramount. Ironic, I thought, that she was saying how squeaky clean they were as she pushed off the boat. To be fair, she didn't benefit from that push, and that contact was largely incidental.
Watching that interview, I'm impressed with how self absorbed Ms. Nyad is. I'll give her kudos on an assisted swim, but I have no respect for her as a person.
A question...is the the Cuba to Florida swim under the accepted rules of continuous swim with no jelly fish suit for 100 plus miles in the current of the Florida Straits, etc....a truly unassisted swim by channel rules even possible?
I find it easier to believe that she did the swim than to believe that there is a conspiracy of what, a dozen people spread across the two boats and they are all concealing the fact that she actually got out and rode in the boat for part of the swim.
I just don't think you can get that many people to keep their mouths shut about something of that sort. Someone would have said something.
[Maroney] was a blistering fast marathon swimmer.....among the best of all-time. Just over 17 hours in a double crossing of the English Channel, won MIMS 3 times, and almost ran down Tracey Wickham in a relatively short 7.6K race when Wickham made a comeback as a marathon swimmer over 20 years ago. Keep in mind that Wickham held both the 400 & 800 meter freestyle world records for about 9 years until Janet Evans broke both records. That's the kind of speed Maroney had.....which really should lead some in the press to take a very detailed look at the currents on Nyad's crossing, and not concentrate so much on the validity of a shark cage in 1997.
This is fascinating context, and news to me. Thank you!
This is fascinating context, and news to me. Thank you!
I've been thinking about this as well..... It would be interesting to see a model that uses DNs tides and Susie Maroneys speed. Could one so easily dismiss the cage as aiding her speed? Consider that navigator John Bartlett said he worked up models that had DN finishing in as little as 38 hours.
Capt John Duke here from support
vessel Phat Dolphin the kayakers support vessel.
B9 Chris you state there was a chaotic scene of volunteers ect I take exception to your statement as if you were the professional on hand , I personally do not remember you either.
And well you shouldn't! I'm part of the web team - I agree the boat crew is well organized during each swim, and an excellent job you did. However, there's a much longer engagement before and after, involving a lot of people on land, and generally our organization is... messy at best. Alex de Cordoba is also part of the web team, and normally back onshore with us, but I'm sure you remember him blogging directly from the boat this year. Generally when people are asking why there isn't more info coming out of "the team," they're talking about that larger, less connected team, especially the people updating the web and social media feeds.
To be fair though I should clarify the chaos/messy wording is meant a bit tongue-in-cheek. Obviously we do coordinate. But typically I hear less and less as a swim comes up (Diana's busy swimming), a red alert, I make sure the servers don't burn down - then typically not much for 2 weeks while everyone copes with the press. Then we talk again.
We have maps of the current, logs and other things coming - as others have said here just hang in there it takes time to get everything into one format, but we're working on it.
I am "out there" because I was the one they called. Specifically, Suzanne Sataline, the first journalist to report on this story, found me through the Forum. Suzanne then wrote a follow-up story in the NYT in which I was quoted. The other media outlets then reached out to the people quoted in the story. Pretty simple chain of events.
I emailed Suzanne last Tuesday and pointed her to this site. So, no, @evmo had nothing to do with it.
[Maroney]... almost ran down Tracey Wickham in a relatively short 7.6K race when Wickham made a comeback as a marathon swimmer over 20 years ago. Keep in mind that Wickham held both the 400 & 800 meter freestyle world records for about 9 years until Janet Evans broke both records.
This is fascinating context, and news to me. Thank you!
I should've mentioned that Maroney's race against Wickham involved shark cages. Maroney built an early lead because Wickham had trouble getting accustomed to her cage. Once she got going, she passed Maroney, but Maroney almost caught her at the end.
1. The logical conclusion can only be that DN's swim was not a first.
2. That is was assisted.
3 It was an incredible accomplishment by a super mentally tough person.
Iron Mike "swimmers" this is a "Swimmers:\" forum ? You just love to fan any spark, love ya man ,,,
Pull a cage thru the water and say 5% of surface water is covered by cage material 5% of the water is pulled with it , not the same as a shark swimmer in the water just more of a "team" effort.
@david_barra - I really wish that article would have mentioned the North Channel wear jellies are a looming and dooming factor YET there are people who have finished it clean. Just because no one HAS done it from Cuba to Florida doesn't mean it cannot be done, just that it hasn't been done unassisted.
This appears to be a summation from hand written notes (she mentions trouble reading her notes at one point). Is this common or do observers usually also release their contemporaneously hand written notes also?
@david_barra - I really wish that article would have mentioned the North Channel wear jellies are a looming and dooming factor YET there are people who have finished it clean. Just because no one HAS done it from Cuba to Florida doesn't mean it cannot be done, just that it hasn't been done unassisted.
Thanks for thinking of North Channel swimmers.
But whereas Lion's Manes jellyfish are a real nuisance and very painful, I don't think they are as debilitating or even potentially lethal as the box jellyfish in the Strait of Florida. (During my NC crossing I swam into appr. five huge LM jellyfish (and I was lucky, helped by initially sunny weather and a coach who would whistle when I approached one). As awful as the stings were (esp. in the face and chest) I managed to keep swimming, and the pain would abate after 10-20 minutes. That wouldn't work with box jellyfish, so i have been told.)
In order to do a C-F swim following EC rules so without all the jellyfish gear, one would probably have to do it the way Fergal Somerville did his NC crossing and look for a jelly-free period. (In order to avoid the jellyfish Fergal 'simply' did his NC crossing in June, when there are no jellies yet but when the water is still freezing cold (9-10 degrees C). Not for the fainthearted!) But I wonder if there is such a period when the Florida Strait has less or no jellies?
Very solid interview w/ Evan by Jeff Commings on www.swiminfo.com. My hope is that it goes viral, mostly because the structure of the interview was such that the main details and points of contention are spelled out in a more comprehensive manner than most folks are accustomed to witnessing from mainstream media.
This appears to be a summation from hand written notes (she mentions trouble reading her notes at one point). Is this common or do observers usually also release their contemporaneously hand written notes also?
Handwritten notes, taken during a swim as it unfolds, are usually considered the official observer's report. Shouldn't be a problem to scan the handwritten notes and make them available, too.
How Cook swims are classified for Cook swim records is the decision of the Cook swim sanctioning body, i.e., Phil Rush.
If a Cook swimmer set a speed record that included a shark break, I suppose Phil has the prerogative to recognize it, but I hope he wouldn't.
If a Cook swimmer did a 4-way crossing and claimed a world distance or time-in-water record, but the swim included a shark break, then I'd say no way, no how, should that swim be considered for an unassisted world record (non-geographically specific).
Thanks evmo for clarifying. Even though the swims are similar in distance and time, I think it's fair to say the EC rules are not imposed on the Cook swim and its sanctioning body, Phil Rush. Given the 110 mile distance and 53 hours swimming in jelly invested waters, why is the EC community imposing rules for swims ranging from 10-15 hours, 22-26miles in waters that are not considered as risky or dangerous sea creature-wise? I'm curious how Phil Rush broke away from the EC to keep the Cook swim fair and safe, but is still recognized and respected by the EC community (or maybe not). Must of been a political mountain for Phil to climb at that time, but he must have believed it was necessary to preserve the Cook swim and swimmer safety.
The chatter on this forum has quieted over speed, distance and favorable currents - and moved on to the suit, mask and handlers or "assistance". There looks to be enough supporting info from independent experts (and not those who recently tapped into their inner oceanographer), Diana's swim speed and distance are mostly no longer in question. Are you (and others on this forum) now accepting the distance and swim speed in both favorable and unfavorable currents - in other words Diana was not towed or ferried?
Comments
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Frankly, without that blog update, I don't think all the questioning of the legitimacy of the swim happens.
By the way, I promise to buy a cup of coffee for the 250th person to use the term, "haters."
Ron Collins
Clearwater, Florida
DistanceMatters.com
Ron Collins
Clearwater, Florida
DistanceMatters.com
This swim was to take 60-70 hours based on speed of swimmer. Sleep deprivation, feeding issues, jelly fish, hypothermia, age of this swimmer all are major issues before she jumped in water. To have failed several times and no one really being successful, causes one to think about it from the "get go". The feeding issue just does not make sense as that was an elaborate statement not a simple misquote in her blog. As Ron and others have stated mucho times, the swimmer speed in the "dark" just does not make sense. I really want to believe her but having done some of these long swims, I just do not see it as possible even with perfeect conditions. Its a great story...and that is all it is in my mine.
http://owswimming.com/2013/09/12/thoughts-on-the-diana-nyad-controversy/
There's also this article from David Adams of Reuters, one of the journalists I've been most impressed by, along with Suzanne Sataline:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/12/us-cuba-swim-idUSBRE98A01M20130912
I want to pull out one particular part of Mr. Adams article:
So, @Munatones is saying there's a set of "Florida Straits Rules," which he wrote himself, but apparently kept private (for reasons unknown) until now.
That gets to the heart of what still bothers me. As a former marathon swimmer, I know that well-kept logs can be posted very shortly after a swim, maybe even within minutes. Hours at most. It’s well over a week and no logs--or did I miss something? Ms. Nyad claims that neither she nor her captain know how to "upload" (see "Nyad Remains Defiant"). I’m sure, though, that they have countless friends and supporters who do. So where are the logs and why haven’t we seen them?
--Daniel Slosberg
In fact, none of the logs have been released, yet, that I am aware of.
Does this surprise anyone here?
This whole situation makes me pretty uncomfortable. I know others have said essentially the same thing, probably more eloquently than I will, but I feel the need to rant anyway.
This should have been a triumphant for our sport. Personally, I could have lived with the stinger suit and the mask, I think she said she was going to use those well before she jumped in. But she and her team (as a whole, not some of the individuals like @b9chris who have contributed within this threat) have been nothing but duplicitous, vague, and contentious. Every question, however benign and well intentioned, has been viewed as a personal attack. There is no acknowledgement that her credibility has reason to be doubted, given the boat touching incident from last year, and the late reporting of her boarding a vessel for, what, 10 hours last year.
Because of the way Ms. Nyad has engaged the media (kudos to her for that, I guess), and the way that the media and the general public have latched on to this swim as such a triumphant moment, anyone showing any doubt is viewed as a cynic, much like Paul Kimmage was during the Lance Armstrong era. (I find this a big double standard given how people view doping in baseball and football, but that's a different rant for a different day.)
A lot of people that I interact with know that I am an open water swimmer. They don't know a lot about the sport, nor do I expect them to. But because they know that I engage in similar activities, I get asked about the swim. I think that she completed the swim, but I've lost respect for Ms. Nyad. I don't like having to sound like such a malcontent about it.
There have been many inspirational swims that I can think of in the few years I've started swimming further and further distances. This morning, I read the account of Guri and Lake Willoughby. Darren Miller, the more I see his presence on here and read his blog and hear about his successful swims, sounds like a supremely high class human being. Everyone that I've reached out to within the endurance sports world, swimmers or otherwise, has been nothing but accomodating and helpful. But then you hear Ms. Nyad talking about how pleased she was that Penny Palfrey and Chloe McCardel were unsuccessful in their swims. I understand wanting to be first, but it's petty to hope for the failure of others so that you can be better.
I'm glad that our voice is being heard, even if it seems to be largely being dismissed and ridiculed. I'm glad that our sport is getting exposure. But it saddens me that someone so selfish and petty is getting so glorified in (inter)national media.
vessel Phat Dolphin the kayakers support vessel.
B9 Chris you state there was a chaotic scene of volunteers ect I take exception to your statement as if you were the professional on hand , I personally do not remember you either. Aboard each vessel I saw dedicated mariners doing their job, many USCG licensed Captains with years of ocean going experience providing a home base for each of the specialty groups those being kayakers, shark swimmers,,media and small vessel transport crew. Again I reiterate we were a team and if any of you "swimmers" expect to do any great venture in the water you better have that team behind you and make sure that team is qualified.
Our particular vessel was within 100-300 yards of the Voyager and Diana Nyad at all times except during the storm where in a professional way we went into "squall protical and each kayaker and shark swimmer did their professional best and winds abated we proceded with standard operations, kayaks back into the water and shark swimmers out .
So my reading your posts I see there is just a lot of misunderstanding of the Gulf Stream, currents, eddies and waves mixed in.
These professional mariners did great as a team
I ask b/c this morning upon rereading the updates posted at http://www.diananyad.com/blog/2am-first-feeding
this post has appeared to explain the "misquote" about the 7 1/2 hr no-feeding discrepancy.
The original detailed version of that 7.5 hrs remains, which I find curious, but that post was so widely read and quoted, I guess it would have looked suspect if that had disappeared.
I wasn't looking for trouble, really. I just was trying to find a post I recalled reading about her crew telling Diana at one point that she was not going to finish as soon as they had projected earlier for some reason. I thought the gist of it was they were trying to keep her spirits up, I recalled no mention during the swim of the fact that she had lucked onto this super fast current that was pushing her to shore at record pace.
The post I was looking for is no longer there. Did I imagine it? By any chance does anyone else recall reading something like that? Did anyone happen to copy all the updates posted from her crew in their entirety? It is possible my recall of the post is incorrect. Just curious if anyone else out here saw something like that.
I don't think you will find a soul in this forum that will debate that statement.
Obviously, I wasn't involved in the swim, but @b9chris could have had a vastly different experience with this venture, given his very different role. I don't doubt that the team on the water was polished and competent in supporting the swimmer. That may or may not mean that the communications he was trying to manage and funnel were just as smooth.
I don't know what happened, just saying that different people can view the same experiences differently, for whatever reason.
Capt Duke: I've heard a lot about providing (or rather, demanding) logs. As the Capt of the kayak support vessel, Phat Dolphin, what type of logs (if any) were you required to keep; and in general what was normally recorded for your support vessel (kayaks in/out, time, lat/lon, etc)? Were these hand written logs, typed (laptop/ipad), combination of the two?
Thanks,
Stuart
The lazy mans way points and present location were always in front of myself and Captain Scott Thomas via flat screen
The chart I have is Havana to Tampa Bay 11420
My marks include gps marks with dates and times , simple.
Kayaker had 3 kayaks aboard with two kayaks with Diana all the time, every 1 1/2 hour we would approach Diana and Voyager within a safe distance release the third Kayaker to change up with another so kayakers were paddling the shark shield
1 1/2 hours then rotating out for 3 hours.
We had six kayakers aboard all very qualified having worked in the kayak excursion industry for years. We stuck to our schedule thouroghly so as all could get fed and slept.
There were a total of 5 support vessels .
Think of English Channel rules as simply a benchmark for open water standards for unassisted swims. In general, to do a swim unassisted, you look to that list of rules unless something else is provided. The Channel was one of the first places where battles between rubber suits and just a swimmer in a swimsuit against the elements was taken up, so Webb's completion offered some basic guidelines for unassisted swims. I would not recommend ale or brandy, and porpoise grease is in short supply nowadays.I'm glad Paul Boyton's rubber suit isn't our standard for swims!
When Chloe attempted the Florida swim, she set out the rules she would try to swim by ahead of time, and many pointed out that since there was controversy last year, Nyad should have prepared similar rules before her swim. http://openwaterswimming.eu/node/8279
Since Nyad's statements last year were not consistent with the reality of the swim, and this time she has said that nobody touched her when in fact they did, it appears she is operating under a different set of rules. If this set of rules is published ahead of time, an impartial observer can make sure that there is compliance during the event. Since there was no such publication, and no observer appointed to enforce published rules, we refer to EC rules because there is nothing else to go on. She certainly did not do the swim "unassisted" under published definitions of the term, or under EC rules.
Based on part tragedies in the Channel and other swims, and a simple understanding of nutrition for marathon swimming, I'm surprised more people haven't questioned the 7-hour break in hydration and nutrition while in incredibly salty waters.
Charming!
CoachDC. Thanks. Given the scruitiny of long distance swims, seems like EC rules are much more than a benchmark. And every swim has assistance and it takes a team to guide the swimmer to a successful swim, it's the type and amount that seems to be in question. This is why i asked about the Cook swim. I'm not a channel swimmer, but given every argument I've read, the Cook swim violates EC Channel rules allowing the swimmer to board the support boat, probably helped on board (i.e. touched) until shark danger clears. If this swim falls under EC rules to be a valid swim, then clearly there are exceptions to the rules or benchmark for reasons of safety. I suspect there was a first (2nd, 3rd) Cook swim, sharks encountered, swimmer pulled until danger cleared - then continued on his/her journey, and not disqualified or dismissed. Only looking for clarification and a little history on exceptions (if any) for swimmer safety.
Thanks,
Stuart
Wow. That shows incredible levels of maturity...
The GPS lat/lon points have always been available. http://www.diananyad.com/swim/currentswim As for all the logs you are looking for, current, wind, feeding, hydration, etc - maybe others? Given Capt Duke's response there a combination of hand written and digital - takes time to compile info in a way its in proper context, scan, upload, print, etc This data may already have been provided to those reviewing, and not made public just yet.
In the context of long distance channel swims, I think it's fair to say every swimmer has "assistance" - food, water, navigation. They may not necessarily be touched, but someone prepares, touches and delivers what they need to sustain their swim, as well as guide their way to a successful crossing.
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
I don't wear a wetsuit; it gives the ocean a sporting chance.
Some good thoughts indeed. A few more things to add:
1) Australians use to do quite a few marathon swims in shark cages, so this was a pretty natural choice for Maroney for this swim. Maroney was trained for a while by Des Renford, who crossed the English Channel 19 times in 19 attempts. He, along with many Australians, participated in many marathon swimming contests off the coast of Australia, and a shark cage was mandatory in quite a few of those swims. What's more, we are more technologically advanced today than when Maroney did her swim in 1997. If she was still doing marathon swims today, it's highly likely that she wouldn't have used a shark cage.
2) Much of the press coverage on this swim is based in the USA. It is unlikely that they'll do anything to celebrate Maroney, Penny Palfrey, or Chloe McCardel, despite the absolutely incredible accomplishments of all 3 swimmers.
Specifically regarding Maroney, the spin seems to go in the direction regarding the validity of the shark cage, but it's unlikely that you'll read much in the current press that she was a blistering fast marathon swimmer.....among the best of all-time. Just over 17 hours in a double crossing of the English Channel, won MIMS 3 times, and almost ran down Tracey Wickham in a relatively short 7.6K race when Wickham made a comeback as a marathon swimmer over 20 years ago. Keep in mind that Wickham held both the 400 & 800 meter freestyle world records for about 9 years until Janet Evans broke both records. That's the kind of speed Maroney had.....which really should lead some in the press to take a very detailed look at the currents on Nyad's crossing, and not concentrate so much on the validity of a shark cage in 1997.
Keep moving forward.
Save them. They would make a fascinating part of a larger article about this whole affair or even as part of a book describing this mess.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Thank you, @danslos. I've been wondering the same thing. Where are the logs and why haven't we seen them?
--Anne Cleveland
I think you're starting to look silly now.
Watching that interview, I'm impressed with how self absorbed Ms. Nyad is. I'll give her kudos on an assisted swim, but I have no respect for her as a person.
I find it easier to believe that she did the swim than to believe that there is a conspiracy of what, a dozen people spread across the two boats and they are all concealing the fact that she actually got out and rode in the boat for part of the swim.
I just don't think you can get that many people to keep their mouths shut about something of that sort. Someone would have said something.
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
And well you shouldn't! I'm part of the web team - I agree the boat crew is well organized during each swim, and an excellent job you did. However, there's a much longer engagement before and after, involving a lot of people on land, and generally our organization is... messy at best. Alex de Cordoba is also part of the web team, and normally back onshore with us, but I'm sure you remember him blogging directly from the boat this year. Generally when people are asking why there isn't more info coming out of "the team," they're talking about that larger, less connected team, especially the people updating the web and social media feeds.
To be fair though I should clarify the chaos/messy wording is meant a bit tongue-in-cheek. Obviously we do coordinate. But typically I hear less and less as a swim comes up (Diana's busy swimming), a red alert, I make sure the servers don't burn down - then typically not much for 2 weeks while everyone copes with the press. Then we talk again.
We have maps of the current, logs and other things coming - as others have said here just hang in there it takes time to get everything into one format, but we're working on it.
ask Phillip Rush.
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
Keep moving forward.
1. The logical conclusion can only be that DN's swim was not a first.
2. That is was assisted.
3 It was an incredible accomplishment by a super mentally tough person.
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
Pull a cage thru the water and say 5% of surface water is covered by cage material 5% of the water is pulled with it , not the same as a shark swimmer in the water just more of a "team" effort.
http://www.diananyad.com/blog/janet-hinkle-observer
Thanks for thinking of North Channel swimmers.
But whereas Lion's Manes jellyfish are a real nuisance and very painful, I don't think they are as debilitating or even potentially lethal as the box jellyfish in the Strait of Florida. (During my NC crossing I swam into appr. five huge LM jellyfish (and I was lucky, helped by initially sunny weather and a coach who would whistle when I approached one). As awful as the stings were (esp. in the face and chest) I managed to keep swimming, and the pain would abate after 10-20 minutes. That wouldn't work with box jellyfish, so i have been told.)
In order to do a C-F swim following EC rules so without all the jellyfish gear, one would probably have to do it the way Fergal Somerville did his NC crossing and look for a jelly-free period. (In order to avoid the jellyfish Fergal 'simply' did his NC crossing in June, when there are no jellies yet but when the water is still freezing cold (9-10 degrees C). Not for the fainthearted!) But I wonder if there is such a period when the Florida Strait has less or no jellies?
Milko
https://db.marathonswimmers.org/p/milko-van-gool/
Keep moving forward.
http://www.diananyad.com/blog/navigators-log-john-bartlett
Thanks evmo for clarifying. Even though the swims are similar in distance and time, I think it's fair to say the EC rules are not imposed on the Cook swim and its sanctioning body, Phil Rush. Given the 110 mile distance and 53 hours swimming in jelly invested waters, why is the EC community imposing rules for swims ranging from 10-15 hours, 22-26miles in waters that are not considered as risky or dangerous sea creature-wise? I'm curious how Phil Rush broke away from the EC to keep the Cook swim fair and safe, but is still recognized and respected by the EC community (or maybe not). Must of been a political mountain for Phil to climb at that time, but he must have believed it was necessary to preserve the Cook swim and swimmer safety.
The chatter on this forum has quieted over speed, distance and favorable currents - and moved on to the suit, mask and handlers or "assistance". There looks to be enough supporting info from independent experts (and not those who recently tapped into their inner oceanographer), Diana's swim speed and distance are mostly no longer in question. Are you (and others on this forum) now accepting the distance and swim speed in both favorable and unfavorable currents - in other words Diana was not towed or ferried?
Stuart