Or, is this an ego stroke for you and Dave Barra garnishing attention for yourselves? It is fair to ask questions, however, you two are everywhere. Did you call CNN, NBC, or other outlets, or did they call you? Please don't take this as being confrontational or inflammatory.
Given that this is a not an ad supported site, I wouldn't be surprised that any increased traffic resulting from the publicity surrounding this is actually costing the sites founders dollars.
You have a fair question (who contacted who) but I think the first sentence in the paragraph quoted is at odds with the last.
It would be interesting to see the question(s) posed to Nyad prior to Penny Dean's comment that "I feel sorry for the questions you were just asked . . . the questions you're asked are rather ridiculous."
The bit about not being confrontational is a cop-out. It was confrontational.
PS. I really enjoyed your English Channel video. Did the people who produced it reach out to you first, or did you ask them?
I produced my video with two friends and only seen by a few until I posted it here. I've only been interviewed a few times. Mostly after races. I enjoy the anonymity of a low profile.
I wasn't trying to be confrontational, but it was fair to ask about people's motivations for inserting themselves into this debate.
Or, is this an ego stroke for you and Dave Barra garnishing attention for yourselves? It is fair to ask questions, however, you two are everywhere. Did you call CNN, NBC, or other outlets, or did they call you? Please don't take this as being confrontational or inflammatory.
Trent is supremely fast and had a great tide. However, he drafted off of the bow wake from his escort boat. Was that legal? Check out the video on that one.
I see the streamer as a safety measure to keep the swimmer from becoming disoriented. I've done lots of night swimming staring at a glow stick taped to the back of a kayak. It is very difficult to discern that from ship lights, stars, or lights on the shore. I've been behind a streamer with glow sticks tied to them to keep me going straight. They don't make you faster.
My point is that marathon swimming is a fluid (no pun intended) endeavor and no two swims or sets of rules are going or need to be the identical.
Diana cheated if she got out of the water at any time, held onto the boat for any reason, or received any type of artifical forward assistance.
I believe that she made the swim until it is otherwise proven to the contrary.
I did not reach out to any media, and haven't returned calls to WSJ or Fox news. I am wary of the media, and try to insure that any statement I make won't be reduced to a misleading little sound byte.... easier said than done.
I agree that as per TG's english channel video, he is exploiting a loophole in the rules. For the record, I would like to see that loophole closed and I was happy to see steps taken by the Santa Barbara folks to add that to their regulations.
I think the classification of aid and assistance should not be restricted to items or conduct that increase speed since exposure (as I stated on the Today Show... DID YOU SEE IT! I CAN SEND YOU A LINK!) is indeed part of the challenge of this sport. (at least it is for us slow guys)
I have been consistent in my position on this and I accept that I may be in the minority, but I'm happy to repeat it to anyone who asks. (except Fox News... I have standards after all)
Did they say when they are going to release data/logs on her swim? As time goes by, could someone alter them? I know that could open up a whole new discussion.
I think the classification of aid and assistance should not be restricted to items or conduct that increase speed since exposure (as I stated on the Today Show... DID YOU SEE IT! I CAN SEND YOU A LINK!) is indeed part of the challenge of this sport.
Yes I did, and they misspelled your name I believe. You're looking younger. Whats your secret?? $-)
I think this will be my last comment on this. I dreamt of sharks and swimming w fins last night. ( those who know me know I abhor fins). Anyhoo, for what it's worth... To have open water swimming ( floating, whatever) in the mainstream news, on TV (!!)is eventually going to be a good thing. We can all learn from this episode. We all know now how to better document our swims, how to better present ourselves and our sport( passion) to the press and also what NOT to do.
We have alot of information here, and are all adults ( in age at least) and can make our own decisions as to what happened with Nyad's swim. No need to trumpet it to the world for most of us.
As to the insinuation that @evmo and @davidbarra are using this to somehow stroke their own egos... wow. I thought Nyad's assertion that she "didn't cheat" was a stretch.
Evan and David ( and a WHOLE LOT of others on this forum ) have amazing resumes. They have no need to massage their egos or pad their resumes. They speak for themselves.
Thank you to both and all involved for bringing this forum to life.
A slightly different perspective on this rat's nest:
Regardless of whether or not you believe Ms. Nyad did indeed do what she claims to have done, asking the hard questions NOW serves a critical function for history's sake. I am a baseball fan (love those stats) and one of the greatest losses to the sport is the fact that racial segregation has given us no real perspective on the greatness of some of the Negro League players. Furthermore, most of the information about the games played in that league and in exhibition-type games are often lost or incomplete. Is Satchel Paige the greatest pitcher in the history of baseball? I'd bet "yes", but couldn't use much in the way of game records to prove my case - they are gone.
In 100 years someone may have questions about Ms. Nyad's swim and the response will be to point out that it was scrutinized heavily within days of the swim, by qualified people, with real data and not suppositions and it was decided that...
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
In the end it goes down to how this should be recorded - assisted. For me - she first declared on Facebook that she was NEVER touched by another person, last night she contradicted and said she was touched for sunscreen and getting her suit on and off. I find it troubling that the truth has to be wrung out of her - not just on this swim but past swims as well (entirely another subject)
What I care about is she is trying to claim this as the first unassisted swim. No, you were not unassisted. Assisted/unassisted have a meaning in open water swimming. She should not get the first unassisted swim designation. That has yet to be done. If she wants first without a shark cage - whatever... but you damn well better document and spell out what the swim was to provide the baseline for swimmers who come after.
As far as I see it...
First to swim from Cuba to Florida (assisted - shark cage): Susie Maroney
Second to swim from Cuba to Florida (assisted - define aids) Diana Nyad
If you really need to have a first then...
First to swim from Cuba to Florida (assisted - define aids such as streamer, stinger suit, mask, handlers touching/suit on/off assistance, people pushing jellies out of the way) w/out a shark cage: Diana Nyad
BECAUSE
First to swim from Cuba to Florida (unassisted): TBD and may never be but it needs to be there to attain as that is the goal. I don't see Nyad or anyone else being above that.
It seems she cannot stomach the "assisted" part or not having to be first. If either Penny or Chloe had made their swims, do you think Nyad wouldn't have screamed bloody murder about them wearing a stinger suit (if one was worn) saying that it was an assistance? Think about it... Think about - if it were you, your daughter, your brother, your grandchild, your neighbor, your friend who finally does this swim without assistance as marathon swimmers define swims - wouldn't you think it unfair for that person NOT to get the designation of "first unassisted"?
It is unfortunate but Nyad frankly brought the skepticism on herself based on past omissions and half-truths that were later uncovered. After so many years in the sport to not know the importance of having experienced, impartial observers, to not be clear before and after (wasn't touched by another person ever statement by her on FB after the swim) on what happened may gain her sympathy from the unknowing masses but frankly erodes any respect from those within the swimming community.
A quick note for all those looking at this forum due to the recent DN controversy. Please take a moment and look at the thread titled "Chloe McCardel Cuba to Florida Swim" in the Cheering section on this forum. Note the "transparency", pre-published rules and inclusion of her peers prior to and after her record setting attempt.
It would be interesting to see the question(s) posed to Nyad prior to Penny Dean's comment that "I feel sorry for the questions you were just asked . . . the questions you're asked are rather ridiculous."
OK, someone needs to fess up. Who asked her the peeing in the pool question? :-?
@JBirrrd - more important, if she was planning on doing her 48-hr in the pool event/self-promotion fest in NYC or wherever and inviting celebrities, politicians, etc. to join her in said pool... um, well, yeah. Maybe Al Roker, Matt Lauer and Robin Roberts will be takers :-D
OK, someone needs to fess up. Who asked her the peeing in the pool question? :-?
I asked her about her pool training pace (2 minutes per 100m), to contextualize her reported open-water speed. She volunteered the bit about peeing in the pool, unprompted.
I thought the rules we have been talking about are for ALL marathon swimmers... including DN.
Her disconnect with (and disrespect of) the world of marathon swimming and the amazing swims members of this community have completed astounds me. Clearly, it's Diana's world and we are just spectators.
I'm going to assume @evmo invited DN to join the Forum. I will also assume she never will.
My head now officially hurts (I can provide an independent observer's report of this fact if no one believes me). I'm out.
I wasn't trying to be confrontational, but it was fair to ask about people's motivations for inserting themselves into this debate.
I apologize if I offended you.
Um... everyone here has inserted themselves into the debate. I am "out there" because I was the one they called. Specifically, Suzanne Sataline, the first journalist to report on this story, found me through the Forum. Suzanne then wrote a follow-up story in the NYT in which I was quoted. The other media outlets then reached out to the people quoted in the story. Pretty simple chain of events.
I too prefer to live more anonymously, and if you think I'm enjoying the hate mail from unhinged Diana fans, you're not thinking this through.
I also go back to my question yesterday- why didn't DN have independent qualified observers on this swim attempt ?? Did she have them on other attempts ?
On the 4th attempt she had Steve Munatones. If there was another one than I don't know.
As I recall, Munatones didn't seem all that impartial or independent to me. I think he was called out on this forum for that, as well, but I haven't looked for proof of my statement there. SImilar to what some other posts in this thread have mentioned, he seemed as interested in generating hits on his webpage as he seemed in observing a swim.
I also go back to my question yesterday- why didn't DN have independent qualified observers on this swim attempt ?? Did she have them on other attempts ?
If I recall correctly, the claim was that Steve M and Lexy were unavailable due to the short notice of splash time, and it was convenient to enlist two acquaintances from Florida..... To much to think about and get ready.... Weather was good.... Currents were good.... Had to go.
Not trying to be snarky here, but each question was answered with a whirlwind soliloquy. (Hence the peeing in the pool detail)
Is Steve one of the people responsible for ratifying this swim ??? If so based on openwaterpedia ( I believe one of his sites ) Then based on above link updated 3rd June 2013 - if he is satisfied by the yet to be produced data and observers reports- will he then be ratyfing it/approving for Guiness etc as an a 'Assisted swim ' ??
Assisted
adjective - An open water swim is assisted when an open water swimmer wears, uses, or benefits from a wetsuit, protective swimwear (e.g., stinger suit), technical swimsuit, fins, paddles, snorkel, shark cage, buoyancy of any sort, protective jellyfish cage, or any other equipment, tool, object, material, boat, materials that helps increase the natural buoyancy, heat retention or skin protection during the swim whether for extreme temperatures (water or air) or marine life.
Unassisted Swims
If Unassisted, the swimmer wears only traditional swimwear (as defined by the English Channel swimming community), goggles, and if desired, ear plugs and one swim cap.
External links
Jennifer Figge's Stage Across The Atlantic
The Issue Came Up: Disability, Injury, Assisted Or Wetsuit?
Courtesy of
Open Water Source
This page was last modified on 3 June 2013, at 20:45.
This page has been accessed 1,100 times.
Content is available under GNU Free Documentation License 1.2.
## Please don't take my post as in any way saying anything negative about Steve M-I personally have respect for the advice and assistance he has given us (and others ) along our Journey. I just think it's time that we put in place some real guidelines so that swimmer in future years/generations can go after records
"The community has already decided that Susie Maroney’s 1997 swim of the same distance, but with a shark cage, is of a lesser value than Nyad’s with all of the above mentioned criteria. Where do those restrictions fall next?"http://swimswam.com/whats-next-diana-nyad-conversation/
I'd like to go on the record saying that I DON'T believe that doing a marathon swim with a shark cage is a lesser record than doing a marathon swim with shark divers. I have serious concerns about the direction some swimmers are going in and the idea that we're not questioning the use of shark divers.
While Maroney's time may have benefited from the use of the shark cage, to me her swim plan seems like it may be less tainted by the potential for harm to animals, which I feel is an important consideration in any swim plan.
Some of the most important questions I have about Nyad's swim were not raised last night. I want to know:
1. What was the exact role these shark divers were hired for?
a. What parameters for their behavior set in place prior to the swim?
b. Were they to lure sharks away? With what tools?
c. Were they asked to kill sharks if they attacked the swimmer or a crew member?
2. What role did the shark divers actually play during the swim?
a. Did they encounter any sharks or other dangerous ocean creatures?
b.Did they engage with them? In what way?
c. Did they lure sharks away from the swimmer using bait? (If so, this seems enormously misguided as they could just as easily be luring sharks from further afield to the swimmer.)
3. How close did the shark divers get to the swimmer?
a. If pace swimmers aren't customarily permitted to swim in front of swimmers, does that hold true of the shark divers? Some reports seem to indicate they were flitting about closely in front of and around Nyad.
b. Is it possible that Nyad was able to draft off of a fin-wearing shark diver?
To me, the first two sets of questions are the most important.
My personal feeling is that if a shark diver is deemed a necessary, essential precaution to protect a swimmer through the use of force against a shark, that the swimmer really needs to consider whether it is truly worth it to embark on the swim.
Before we decide to embark on a swim, I think we need ask ourselves: how many animals are worth hurting or even killing in order for me to complete this endeavor?
Capt John Duke here, I was aboard the 41 ft catamaran Phat Dolphin. My specific job was to get kayakers as close to the support vessel Voyager in a "shift change " for the kayakers who carried a low voltage shark protection system that came off the front of the kayak within 5-12 ft of Diana.
My friends there is alot of information out here already. The shark divers were un armed no spears no bang sticks.
Personally my GPS positions line up with the official points though much fewer.
There were a
lot of professionals in their fields at hand all the time, as Diana stated "team" effort it was.
There is something else few are talking about the simple fact that when the seas were up "wave action" helped her speed all the time, she had no head winds at the most east, Southeast and towards the end SSE, always pushing her forward.
At times my compass showed a course of 310 deg yet over the bottom we were moving 340 deg always changing yet ideal in speed and direction.
Believe me the records were kept , a standard has been set though favorable conditions as they were are hard to come by and team effort played a big part in that also.
"I honored the rules," Nyad said at the start of the conference call.
What rules? That is what has irked me and I think many of you actual marathon swimmers this entire time. Seems she likes to do her swims and then set the rules when they are done.
"It's something I've wanted to do all my life. Most of that joy stopped when, you know ... you always expect some questioning but my own peer group, instead of coming to me and asking me questions went to the media."
She seems to have a peer group of one. Then she really has the audacity to say others went to the media first...well yeah, of course she does.
"I never ever knew that we would not be trusted," she said.
Just so how detached she is from the "tiny global community of marathon swimmers" she claims to be a part of.
Oh well, I am not a marathon swimmer, I am simply someone who helps one and is in awe of what you do. I understand why you all questioned so much and I myself also questioned this swim. Nyad has certainly broken a record here, it just seems to contain more conditions than having done it in a shark cage. I look forward to seeing people continue to attempt this swim and actually follow the established "rules".
When Bartlett and Nyad were pressed about why they hadn’t already placed those documents online, Nyad said that neither she nor Bartlett, a 66-year-old veteran seaman, knew how to “upload.” But Nyad promised to make public all documents associated with her swim. http://blogs.wsj.com/dailyfix/2013/09/11/nyad-remains-defiant-i-swam-unaided/
Doing what I can. So, I want to reiterate what I said prior - people sometimes post here imagining Diana's team as a coordinated, top-down army getting tasks done, when it's really more like a chaotic swirl of volunteers, who occasionally are paid a little. I've had only brief contact today with John Bartlett, and only after I saw this post here in the forum and specifically asked how I could help. Seems like that's going to speed things up.
There are basically 2 sets of GPS data - the Spots and the nav data on his boat (I don't know the technical name for marine data gathered that way). We're working on getting that out of the tracker and into a format we can publish that's of any use to downloaders.
Basically when it comes to coding, XML, web stuff, I'm your man. Understanding obscure binary GPS formats or how boats work - not so much. Trying to span that skills gap. We'll get there.
You'll find though it lines right up with the Spots (which is what's on the homepage map), so to the comment about whether the data could be manipulated - the swim was up live as it happened, so I don't see how we'd have a chance to manipulate it.
A quick comment on the criticism about the currents: It's well-documented on the blog that the boat team waits until 2 teams find the forecast for currents to be as north as they'll get (northeast). Sometimes that forecast pans out. So, it shouldn't be super-surprising that the successful attempt happened with current assistance - that is the goal of waiting until a positive current forecast lands, and the reason things have to happen in such a rush each time. The Gulf may favor you, but you don't decide when.
Not sure if anyone has told you - one of the panel members mentioned your Forum participation during the call, as representing Diana's team extremely well. At first Diana claimed to have never heard of any Chris, but when I chimed in with your last name & role, she got it.
So let's review.
1. She did the swim but with "assistance"?
2. This makes her swim not the first between Cuba and Key West.
3. Someone did it with a shark cage.
4. Someone did it with fins and a snorkel?
5. The first person to do it by EC rules will be the "first" to do it in your eyes?
Thanks.
5. The first person to do it by EC rules will be the "first" to do it in your eyes?
Thanks.
In my eyes, each crossing (successful, and otherwise) should be celebrated. The planning and execution is a huge undertaking, and according to the oceanographic experts who have chimed in, requires a boat load of luck as well.
I also believe that the title of first unassisted swimmer should go to ...... The first unassisted swimmer.
The distinction of "assisted" by no means diminishes the feat, however misrepresentation does.
It would be interesting to see the question(s) posed to Nyad prior to Penny Dean's comment that "I feel sorry for the questions you were just asked . . . the questions you're asked are rather ridiculous."
Just read the article and saw this...yes, would also like to know the questions. I also read or heard that the conference call was recorded...does anyone know if that is or will be made available?
For the record, I just contacted Steven Munatones with the questions related to the shark divers that I posted this afternoon. He replied to my email saying that he wrote about what shark divers did on other swims, and that he wasn't there but would answer my questions (without consulting with the people who *were* there). Initially it seemed like he was willing to forward my email if I insisted, but then he decided that no, I would need to contact Diana Nyad's team myself.
Significantly, Steve then didn't offer me the name or contact information of anyone on Nyad's team.
From my limited vantage point, it doesn't seem clear how any questions that were *not* raised last night will be addressed.
It also seems a real shame that some of the participants in the phone call didn't even use their opportunity to ask questions. If they didn't have any questions in advance of the call, why were they included in the call?
progress report 9:30 pm - after a follow-up email from @evmo, Steve has identified some people on the team who might be able to provide answers and is working on getting their contact information.
If they didn't have any questions in advance of the call, why were they included in the call?
I think some folks were there to be cheerleaders.
The call did last >3.5hrs
Since there were no reports, tweets, blog posts etc citing shark activity, I don’t think shark diver protocol was on anyones mind. I know Evan offered to present questions from this forum.... don’t know if anyone took him up on that offer.
I think some folks were there to be cheerleaders.
...
I know Evan offered to present questions from this forum.... don’t know if anyone took him up on that offer.
Several people sent me questions, including 16 from @ScottZornig alone. Did I mention I love @ScottZornig?
Thank you to all those who sent me questions! The non-cheerleading segment of the panel had an email thread during the day before the call, brainstorming questions. I then compiled these questions, along with ones sent to me by others, categorized them, and sent them to the non-cheerleading segment of the panel shortly before the call began. It was a rather long list.
Panelists had the opportunity to ask questions in a specific order determined by moderator @Munatones: 1. Forrest Nelson. 2. Evan Morrison. 3. David Barra, 4. Michelle Macy. 5. Barbara Held. etc.
In the first round, with navigator Bartlett, I asked whether he was measuring the currents on the boat in real-time, how many observations he made, and whether these observations would be available in the logs. He indicated yes to all.
In the second round, mostly addressed to Diana, I asked direct yes/no questions about whether she ever exited the water, ever touched the boat or kayak. She answered no to both.
Earlier, in response to a question from Forrest Nelson, she admitted to being touched by her crew while getting in & out of her stinger suit, and while applying sunscreen & lotions -- which is interesting because she posted the following to my Facebook page last week:
I also asked if she touched the boat during last year's attempt. She said she didn't remember, which is also interesting:
I got home in time to hear the 45 minutes or so of the call. I don't believe it was just the volume of questions that resulted in such a lengthy call.
Diana spoke at great length without actually answering one of the questions I had the opportunity to hear. The questioner asked what time she got out of the water after her swim, and what time she gave a big press conference the next day. The required answer would have been quite short - just one sentence with two times of day.
With regards to Evan's offer - I wrote my questions down on a piece of paper and handed them to him as soon as I heard about the phone call. I don't have the impression that he was given a ton of time to represent all of the various voices, but rather that there was a prescribed format and people were sticking to one topic per turn asking questions.
@evmo, thank you for putting up the screenshot from Facebook. It makes for extraordinary reading. She (or whoever was writing on her behalf) is a true master of ambiguity. I'm not an expert on English grammar, but I'm pretty sure that the statement "Those will be judged by the auspices of the sport and different record keepers" does not make one ounce of sense. This and other points on her comment allude to an imaginary universal authority in the marathon swimming world. Her own words "what rules?" is exactly the one she should have answered before even beginning the swim!
I'm indebted to all of you who have gone to such lengths to get to the bottom of the truths of this event.
Accuse me of bad sportsmanship: Nyad failed in 1978; Susie Moroney succeeded in 1997. Nyad failed again in 2011 and 2012. I can't help but feeling that Nyad has been obsessed to undercut Susie's accomplishments, because of her own failure.
Nyad's accounts of the swim are inconsistent, and the ultimate facts will always remain murky, no matter what the GPS data reveals.
For heaven's sake, may the attention of the swimming world and the world press now be turned towards athletic achievements that have gone unnoticed because of the massive publicity Nyad has garnered for herself.
Honestly I think the whole feeding issue is a red herring.
What you say about the blogger is probably true, but to me the 7.5 hours without feeding is what got this started. It was the first thing that came out, while the swim was still happening, that made people think something fishy was going on.
Frankly, without that blog update, I don't think all the questioning of the legitimacy of the swim happens.
I'm back home and have a lot of catching up to do. Can someone please explain to the world how a swimmer going 1.5 miles per hour can buck a current like the Gulf Stream, and only get blown 45 miles to the east from Hemmingway Marina to Smathers Beach? http://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/GLBhycom1-12/navo/glfmexspdcur_nowcast_anim30d.gif
By the way, I promise to buy a cup of coffee for the 250th person to use the term, "haters."
Ron Collins
Clearwater, Florida
DistanceMatters.com
A question...is the the Cuba to Florida swim under the accepted rules of continuous swim with no jelly fish suit for 100 plus miles in the current of the Florida Straits, etc....a truly unassisted swim by channel rules even possible?
This swim was to take 60-70 hours based on speed of swimmer. Sleep deprivation, feeding issues, jelly fish, hypothermia, age of this swimmer all are major issues before she jumped in water. To have failed several times and no one really being successful, causes one to think about it from the "get go". The feeding issue just does not make sense as that was an elaborate statement not a simple misquote in her blog. As Ron and others have stated mucho times, the swimmer speed in the "dark" just does not make sense. I really want to believe her but having done some of these long swims, I just do not see it as possible even with perfeect conditions. Its a great story...and that is all it is in my mine.
I want to pull out one particular part of Mr. Adams article:
Rules for a crossing like hers were to be created by the first person to succeed, she added, noting that she was following "Florida Straits Rules" during her swim, written for her by Munatones, a respected international swimming expert and former observer on three of Nyad's previous failed attempts to swim the Florida Straits.
Under those rules, swimmers may use a "stinger suit" to protect them from jellyfish.
Morrison said he and other swimmers on the call had never heard of the Florida Straits Rules and that Nyad should have publicized them before her swim.
The rules were drawn up after jellyfish sabotaged one of Nyad's previous failed attempts, Munatones said, noting that some channel crossings have different rules covering exceptional risks.
For example, swimmers attempting the 16-mile Cook Strait separating the North and South Islands of New Zealand are allowed to get out of the water briefly if sharks come too close.
"The rules are always based on safety," said Munatones. "If you have any hope in getting across the Florida Straits, we believe you need a stinger suit. It's not doable in the traditional way."
Munatones said he would be distributing copies of the "rules of engagement" for the Florida Straits to the media and the swimming community.
So, @Munatones is saying there's a set of "Florida Straits Rules," which he wrote himself, but apparently kept private (for reasons unknown) until now.
Comments
You have a fair question (who contacted who) but I think the first sentence in the paragraph quoted is at odds with the last.
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
Stuart
I wasn't trying to be confrontational, but it was fair to ask about people's motivations for inserting themselves into this debate.
I apologize if I offended you.
I did not reach out to any media, and haven't returned calls to WSJ or Fox news. I am wary of the media, and try to insure that any statement I make won't be reduced to a misleading little sound byte.... easier said than done.
I agree that as per TG's english channel video, he is exploiting a loophole in the rules. For the record, I would like to see that loophole closed and I was happy to see steps taken by the Santa Barbara folks to add that to their regulations.
I think the classification of aid and assistance should not be restricted to items or conduct that increase speed since exposure (as I stated on the Today Show... DID YOU SEE IT! I CAN SEND YOU A LINK!) is indeed part of the challenge of this sport. (at least it is for us slow guys)
I have been consistent in my position on this and I accept that I may be in the minority, but I'm happy to repeat it to anyone who asks. (except Fox News... I have standards after all)
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
We have alot of information here, and are all adults ( in age at least) and can make our own decisions as to what happened with Nyad's swim. No need to trumpet it to the world for most of us.
As to the insinuation that @evmo and @davidbarra are using this to somehow stroke their own egos... wow. I thought Nyad's assertion that she "didn't cheat" was a stretch.
Evan and David ( and a WHOLE LOT of others on this forum ) have amazing resumes. They have no need to massage their egos or pad their resumes. They speak for themselves.
Thank you to both and all involved for bringing this forum to life.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/nyad-defends-herself-skeptics-cuba-fla-swim-0
Regardless of whether or not you believe Ms. Nyad did indeed do what she claims to have done, asking the hard questions NOW serves a critical function for history's sake. I am a baseball fan (love those stats) and one of the greatest losses to the sport is the fact that racial segregation has given us no real perspective on the greatness of some of the Negro League players. Furthermore, most of the information about the games played in that league and in exhibition-type games are often lost or incomplete. Is Satchel Paige the greatest pitcher in the history of baseball? I'd bet "yes", but couldn't use much in the way of game records to prove my case - they are gone.
In 100 years someone may have questions about Ms. Nyad's swim and the response will be to point out that it was scrutinized heavily within days of the swim, by qualified people, with real data and not suppositions and it was decided that...
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
What I care about is she is trying to claim this as the first unassisted swim. No, you were not unassisted. Assisted/unassisted have a meaning in open water swimming. She should not get the first unassisted swim designation. That has yet to be done. If she wants first without a shark cage - whatever... but you damn well better document and spell out what the swim was to provide the baseline for swimmers who come after.
As far as I see it...
First to swim from Cuba to Florida (assisted - shark cage): Susie Maroney
Second to swim from Cuba to Florida (assisted - define aids) Diana Nyad
If you really need to have a first then...
First to swim from Cuba to Florida (assisted - define aids such as streamer, stinger suit, mask, handlers touching/suit on/off assistance, people pushing jellies out of the way) w/out a shark cage: Diana Nyad
BECAUSE
First to swim from Cuba to Florida (unassisted): TBD and may never be but it needs to be there to attain as that is the goal. I don't see Nyad or anyone else being above that.
It seems she cannot stomach the "assisted" part or not having to be first. If either Penny or Chloe had made their swims, do you think Nyad wouldn't have screamed bloody murder about them wearing a stinger suit (if one was worn) saying that it was an assistance? Think about it... Think about - if it were you, your daughter, your brother, your grandchild, your neighbor, your friend who finally does this swim without assistance as marathon swimmers define swims - wouldn't you think it unfair for that person NOT to get the designation of "first unassisted"?
It is unfortunate but Nyad frankly brought the skepticism on herself based on past omissions and half-truths that were later uncovered. After so many years in the sport to not know the importance of having experienced, impartial observers, to not be clear before and after (wasn't touched by another person ever statement by her on FB after the swim) on what happened may gain her sympathy from the unknowing masses but frankly erodes any respect from those within the swimming community.
http://swimswam.com/whats-next-diana-nyad-conversation/
OK, someone needs to fess up. Who asked her the peeing in the pool question? :-?
(Good to chuckle every once in awhile while reading this thread. My head was beginning to hurt from reading all those charts graphs and maps.)
"I don't mean to fly in the face of your rules, but for my own life's safety, a literal life-and-death measure, that's the way we did it."
(http://bigstory.ap.org/article/nyad-defends-herself-skeptics-cuba-fla-swim-0)
I thought the rules we have been talking about are for ALL marathon swimmers... including DN.
Her disconnect with (and disrespect of) the world of marathon swimming and the amazing swims members of this community have completed astounds me. Clearly, it's Diana's world and we are just spectators.
I'm going to assume @evmo invited DN to join the Forum. I will also assume she never will.
My head now officially hurts (I can provide an independent observer's report of this fact if no one believes me). I'm out.
I too prefer to live more anonymously, and if you think I'm enjoying the hate mail from unhinged Diana fans, you're not thinking this through.
It was a fair question, poorly asked.
Oh crap....
http://openwaterpedia.com/index.php?title=Assisted
I also go back to my question yesterday- why didn't DN have independent qualified observers on this swim attempt ?? Did she have them on other attempts ?
As I recall, Munatones didn't seem all that impartial or independent to me. I think he was called out on this forum for that, as well, but I haven't looked for proof of my statement there. SImilar to what some other posts in this thread have mentioned, he seemed as interested in generating hits on his webpage as he seemed in observing a swim.
If I recall correctly, the claim was that Steve M and Lexy were unavailable due to the short notice of splash time, and it was convenient to enlist two acquaintances from Florida..... To much to think about and get ready.... Weather was good.... Currents were good.... Had to go.
Not trying to be snarky here, but each question was answered with a whirlwind soliloquy. (Hence the peeing in the pool detail)
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
Assisted
adjective - An open water swim is assisted when an open water swimmer wears, uses, or benefits from a wetsuit, protective swimwear (e.g., stinger suit), technical swimsuit, fins, paddles, snorkel, shark cage, buoyancy of any sort, protective jellyfish cage, or any other equipment, tool, object, material, boat, materials that helps increase the natural buoyancy, heat retention or skin protection during the swim whether for extreme temperatures (water or air) or marine life.
Unassisted Swims
If Unassisted, the swimmer wears only traditional swimwear (as defined by the English Channel swimming community), goggles, and if desired, ear plugs and one swim cap.
External links
Jennifer Figge's Stage Across The Atlantic
The Issue Came Up: Disability, Injury, Assisted Or Wetsuit?
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Open Water Source
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Content is available under GNU Free Documentation License 1.2.
## Please don't take my post as in any way saying anything negative about Steve M-I personally have respect for the advice and assistance he has given us (and others ) along our Journey. I just think it's time that we put in place some real guidelines so that swimmer in future years/generations can go after records
I'd like to go on the record saying that I DON'T believe that doing a marathon swim with a shark cage is a lesser record than doing a marathon swim with shark divers. I have serious concerns about the direction some swimmers are going in and the idea that we're not questioning the use of shark divers.
While Maroney's time may have benefited from the use of the shark cage, to me her swim plan seems like it may be less tainted by the potential for harm to animals, which I feel is an important consideration in any swim plan.
Some of the most important questions I have about Nyad's swim were not raised last night. I want to know:
1. What was the exact role these shark divers were hired for?
a. What parameters for their behavior set in place prior to the swim?
b. Were they to lure sharks away? With what tools?
c. Were they asked to kill sharks if they attacked the swimmer or a crew member?
2. What role did the shark divers actually play during the swim?
a. Did they encounter any sharks or other dangerous ocean creatures?
b.Did they engage with them? In what way?
c. Did they lure sharks away from the swimmer using bait? (If so, this seems enormously misguided as they could just as easily be luring sharks from further afield to the swimmer.)
3. How close did the shark divers get to the swimmer?
a. If pace swimmers aren't customarily permitted to swim in front of swimmers, does that hold true of the shark divers? Some reports seem to indicate they were flitting about closely in front of and around Nyad.
b. Is it possible that Nyad was able to draft off of a fin-wearing shark diver?
To me, the first two sets of questions are the most important.
My personal feeling is that if a shark diver is deemed a necessary, essential precaution to protect a swimmer through the use of force against a shark, that the swimmer really needs to consider whether it is truly worth it to embark on the swim.
Before we decide to embark on a swim, I think we need ask ourselves: how many animals are worth hurting or even killing in order for me to complete this endeavor?
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
Capt John Duke here, I was aboard the 41 ft catamaran Phat Dolphin. My specific job was to get kayakers as close to the support vessel Voyager in a "shift change " for the kayakers who carried a low voltage shark protection system that came off the front of the kayak within 5-12 ft of Diana.
My friends there is alot of information out here already. The shark divers were un armed no spears no bang sticks.
Personally my GPS positions line up with the official points though much fewer.
There were a
lot of professionals in their fields at hand all the time, as Diana stated "team" effort it was.
There is something else few are talking about the simple fact that when the seas were up "wave action" helped her speed all the time, she had no head winds at the most east, Southeast and towards the end SSE, always pushing her forward.
At times my compass showed a course of 310 deg yet over the bottom we were moving 340 deg always changing yet ideal in speed and direction.
Believe me the records were kept , a standard has been set though favorable conditions as they were are hard to come by and team effort played a big part in that also.
What rules? That is what has irked me and I think many of you actual marathon swimmers this entire time. Seems she likes to do her swims and then set the rules when they are done.
She seems to have a peer group of one. Then she really has the audacity to say others went to the media first...well yeah, of course she does.
Just so how detached she is from the "tiny global community of marathon swimmers" she claims to be a part of.
Oh well, I am not a marathon swimmer, I am simply someone who helps one and is in awe of what you do. I understand why you all questioned so much and I myself also questioned this swim. Nyad has certainly broken a record here, it just seems to contain more conditions than having done it in a shark cage. I look forward to seeing people continue to attempt this swim and actually follow the established "rules".
Doing what I can. So, I want to reiterate what I said prior - people sometimes post here imagining Diana's team as a coordinated, top-down army getting tasks done, when it's really more like a chaotic swirl of volunteers, who occasionally are paid a little. I've had only brief contact today with John Bartlett, and only after I saw this post here in the forum and specifically asked how I could help. Seems like that's going to speed things up.
There are basically 2 sets of GPS data - the Spots and the nav data on his boat (I don't know the technical name for marine data gathered that way). We're working on getting that out of the tracker and into a format we can publish that's of any use to downloaders.
Basically when it comes to coding, XML, web stuff, I'm your man. Understanding obscure binary GPS formats or how boats work - not so much. Trying to span that skills gap. We'll get there.
You'll find though it lines right up with the Spots (which is what's on the homepage map), so to the comment about whether the data could be manipulated - the swim was up live as it happened, so I don't see how we'd have a chance to manipulate it.
A quick comment on the criticism about the currents: It's well-documented on the blog that the boat team waits until 2 teams find the forecast for currents to be as north as they'll get (northeast). Sometimes that forecast pans out. So, it shouldn't be super-surprising that the successful attempt happened with current assistance - that is the goal of waiting until a positive current forecast lands, and the reason things have to happen in such a rush each time. The Gulf may favor you, but you don't decide when.
And thanks to the members of DN's crew who are here willing to answer questions.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Not sure if anyone has told you - one of the panel members mentioned your Forum participation during the call, as representing Diana's team extremely well. At first Diana claimed to have never heard of any Chris, but when I chimed in with your last name & role, she got it.
Thank you, again.
Hahaha that is such a perfect demonstration of the "swirling chaos of volunteers." Oh I love it. Thank you. Who is this man?
1. She did the swim but with "assistance"?
2. This makes her swim not the first between Cuba and Key West.
3. Someone did it with a shark cage.
4. Someone did it with fins and a snorkel?
5. The first person to do it by EC rules will be the "first" to do it in your eyes?
Thanks.
In my eyes, each crossing (successful, and otherwise) should be celebrated. The planning and execution is a huge undertaking, and according to the oceanographic experts who have chimed in, requires a boat load of luck as well.
I also believe that the title of first unassisted swimmer should go to ...... The first unassisted swimmer.
The distinction of "assisted" by no means diminishes the feat, however misrepresentation does.
That's my opinion.
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
Just read the article and saw this...yes, would also like to know the questions. I also read or heard that the conference call was recorded...does anyone know if that is or will be made available?
Significantly, Steve then didn't offer me the name or contact information of anyone on Nyad's team.
From my limited vantage point, it doesn't seem clear how any questions that were *not* raised last night will be addressed.
It also seems a real shame that some of the participants in the phone call didn't even use their opportunity to ask questions. If they didn't have any questions in advance of the call, why were they included in the call?
progress report 9:30 pm - after a follow-up email from @evmo, Steve has identified some people on the team who might be able to provide answers and is working on getting their contact information.
The call did last >3.5hrs
Since there were no reports, tweets, blog posts etc citing shark activity, I don’t think shark diver protocol was on anyones mind. I know Evan offered to present questions from this forum.... don’t know if anyone took him up on that offer.
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
Thank you to all those who sent me questions! The non-cheerleading segment of the panel had an email thread during the day before the call, brainstorming questions. I then compiled these questions, along with ones sent to me by others, categorized them, and sent them to the non-cheerleading segment of the panel shortly before the call began. It was a rather long list.
Panelists had the opportunity to ask questions in a specific order determined by moderator @Munatones: 1. Forrest Nelson. 2. Evan Morrison. 3. David Barra, 4. Michelle Macy. 5. Barbara Held. etc.
In the first round, with navigator Bartlett, I asked whether he was measuring the currents on the boat in real-time, how many observations he made, and whether these observations would be available in the logs. He indicated yes to all.
In the second round, mostly addressed to Diana, I asked direct yes/no questions about whether she ever exited the water, ever touched the boat or kayak. She answered no to both.
Earlier, in response to a question from Forrest Nelson, she admitted to being touched by her crew while getting in & out of her stinger suit, and while applying sunscreen & lotions -- which is interesting because she posted the following to my Facebook page last week:
I also asked if she touched the boat during last year's attempt. She said she didn't remember, which is also interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-PWDWMscC4&t=56s
There were two rounds of questions.
Diana spoke at great length without actually answering one of the questions I had the opportunity to hear. The questioner asked what time she got out of the water after her swim, and what time she gave a big press conference the next day. The required answer would have been quite short - just one sentence with two times of day.
With regards to Evan's offer - I wrote my questions down on a piece of paper and handed them to him as soon as I heard about the phone call. I don't have the impression that he was given a ton of time to represent all of the various voices, but rather that there was a prescribed format and people were sticking to one topic per turn asking questions.
http://fermoyfish.com – Owen O'Keefe (Fermoy, Ireland)
Accuse me of bad sportsmanship: Nyad failed in 1978; Susie Moroney succeeded in 1997. Nyad failed again in 2011 and 2012. I can't help but feeling that Nyad has been obsessed to undercut Susie's accomplishments, because of her own failure.
Nyad's accounts of the swim are inconsistent, and the ultimate facts will always remain murky, no matter what the GPS data reveals.
For heaven's sake, may the attention of the swimming world and the world press now be turned towards athletic achievements that have gone unnoticed because of the massive publicity Nyad has garnered for herself.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Frankly, without that blog update, I don't think all the questioning of the legitimacy of the swim happens.
By the way, I promise to buy a cup of coffee for the 250th person to use the term, "haters."
Ron Collins
Clearwater, Florida
DistanceMatters.com
Ron Collins
Clearwater, Florida
DistanceMatters.com
This swim was to take 60-70 hours based on speed of swimmer. Sleep deprivation, feeding issues, jelly fish, hypothermia, age of this swimmer all are major issues before she jumped in water. To have failed several times and no one really being successful, causes one to think about it from the "get go". The feeding issue just does not make sense as that was an elaborate statement not a simple misquote in her blog. As Ron and others have stated mucho times, the swimmer speed in the "dark" just does not make sense. I really want to believe her but having done some of these long swims, I just do not see it as possible even with perfeect conditions. Its a great story...and that is all it is in my mine.
http://owswimming.com/2013/09/12/thoughts-on-the-diana-nyad-controversy/
There's also this article from David Adams of Reuters, one of the journalists I've been most impressed by, along with Suzanne Sataline:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/12/us-cuba-swim-idUSBRE98A01M20130912
I want to pull out one particular part of Mr. Adams article:
So, @Munatones is saying there's a set of "Florida Straits Rules," which he wrote himself, but apparently kept private (for reasons unknown) until now.