I did not even know you were there Niek. That is honestly too bad. I had my lap top and hard drives with hundreds of images and videos. I offered to sit down with anyone and share all my data there.
I plan to provide these to the Ft Lauderdale archives. I have gigabytes of information.
I understand the team has provided the swim data to the appropriate parties.
... I returned out of my genuine interest in providing you with information. As a researcher myself, interest in data is understandable. But it is clear that despite my best attempts and my time and efforts, there is a solid "denier" mentality that is unhinged from reality even when it is provided.
Your information about your research has been pretty extensive, but i don't recall reading any factual data or information on the swim. I have the feeling that you dodge every direct question with vague statements to dissmiss red flags.
Take this example:
No the currents remained extremely favorable. We only had to crab across again in the morning. The squall was also in our favor. I think her water and feed stops were far faster than 15 minutes.
I don't see any data here, no real information. Very different from your statements about your research.
...There are too many team members like me with authentic images, footage, notes actual proof of what went on. This forum seems to feel it is an official "judging body" and demand more and more despite whatever is provided
Where can I find those images, footage and notes? What has been provided after the reports? We are still asking the same questions, because they have not been answered with anything but fanboyism. Really interesting that you use the word "authentic" here. Nobody had any doubts yet, even when I have the feeling that the reports are being quietly updated.
Impartial members of the press can clearly see the bias
Really? I have just seen the pressure from DN personal friends. It is interesting that impartial reporters are not succumbing to that peer pressure. Maybe I have missed something. Can you validate your statement?
I did not even know you were there Niek. That is honestly too bad. I had my lap top and hard drives with hundreds of images and videos. I offered to sit down with anyone and share all my data there.
I plan to provide these to the Ft Lauderdale archives. I have gigabytes of information.
I understand the team has provided the swim data to the appropriate parties.
Really too bad. I can suggest you some upload services. I can even offer you an account on my personal server to upload that data and make it available on your conditions. Size is not a problem. If you can't upload files, we'll find a way without any hassle for you.
Will you take this offer?
Seems to me that Dr. Yanagihara has much to lose if DN is discredited. Probably the hardest pill to swallow is for the entire crew to admit that they were duplicitous without their knowledge.
I wasn't claiming that 100% of all swimmers agreed, as can be noted above. I was writing of those who have contacted me. Obviously, I didn't include you, but I'm happy to amend my statement to 99%.
I categorically reject your claim that I in any way bullied you..
Expressing my considered antithetical opinion is in no way bullying. I have only been polite and as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have edited and removed comments that I felt unfair or bullying to you given different time zone constraints etc. However the exigencies of moderation are more difficult that are often apparent, and I can't rewrite every comment by others in line with a tone I'd prefer or use myself. Where and when I & @evmo were able to respond or edit we have done so.
I haven't been blogging for almost four years in the hope a subject would arise that would turn me into a hate figure. All my tens of thousands of words about swimming are intended to be informative, that is my "mission". In about 800 blog posts the only other subjects that I've ever written that are controversial are my criticism of NYCSwim over MIMS2013 and criticism of Total Immersion as an open water coaching technique.
Tom Doyle just bumped into me and a few friends at the bar, some of us had previously attended one of his talks for swimmers about jellyfish, organised by another forum member (@ColmBreathnach). The meeting wasn't planned, it wasn't even a meeting, just a chat at the bar while we were ordering drinks. It wasn't a snub or insult to you. In fact I also said to Steve @Munatones three times over the weekend that he & I should sit down together to chat but
neither of us seemed to be able to find that time.
I didn't set out to avoid him or you, though you seem to imply I avoided you.
More than you avoided me?
Like @Niek, I was quite visible at the conference. My name and his were on the agenda with yours. I was also on & off the podium for two hours and wandering around at dinner taking photos for the organisers. Honestly Dr. Yanighara, I'm Irish, at a one-time event in Ireland, organised by members of my club, & full of Channel swimmers and others I know. I was busy, but I was not hard to find...
Also, I'm just an opinion. If I am in any way influential, wouldn't it have benefited you to find me? But then wouldn't it have benefited Diana Nyad to answer my questions more directly or to have addressed this community when it raised concerns previously? You see Dr. Yanigahara, I don't think I have changed the opinion of many here. I just wrote what I think based on what I have seen and read, as have all the others here. The fact is just that what I think aligns with what others here do also.
You say we should change the forum statement that we don't celebrate swimmers? But we do celebrate swims and swimmers and will continue to so do. The point is repeatedly made that swimmers who are so used to doing such, for whom DN should be good, are so sceptical about this event.
I am aware that I have been characterised, as I said on the blog, as the bad man from Ireland. Funnily enough, there have been character references for Diana Nyad, but I haven't felt the need. Should I do so however, I feel comfortable that they would be provided by others here. My record is not one of antagonism, but of trying to help others. Though I admit I don't play swimming politics of trying the be everything to everyone. My voice is only more obvious because I write a blog and I'm an Admin here, but I have repeatedly said I do not consider my opinion more important, less so than many here in fact. It's just that mine is better known than some.
I understand you are surely an honourable person. I'd consider myself one also and it for that reason that I write.
We are achieving nothing with this impasse. I and others have repeatedly, ad nauseum seemingly, tried to explain that verification of swims is done through Official Observers, not through the statements of swim crew who are invested in different ways. Example: When Sylvain Estadieu recently completed his English Channel butterfly, I was only crew. The two Official Observers were the ones who decide whether his swim was "good", not me. He was swimming under a rules burden that those of who swim front crawl aren't. Those rules in fact were clear beforehand, and I have a photo of @Sylle holding the sheet with the rules on dry land before the swim started, and there is complete video by the pilot Mike Oram of the entire 18 hours & 42 minutes.
Therefore when you say that I am spreading inaccuracy, I am writing from an expert viewpoint of someone who has spent considerable time on this subject recently trying to figure it out, far more that I would have chosen. I am applying the same standards I would apply to any swim that was trying to avoid the necessary scrutiny we all here must undergo.
She is not "guilty" except in the minds of some extremely angry folks here. She does not report to Niek nor to this forum. The stated mission of this forum to support and celebrate should be corrected to reflect the actual goings on here- to mock, to denigrate, to bully, to perpetuate inaccuracies. Shame.
Angel,
The admins and members of this forum have been exceedingly polite to you - perhaps more polite than such disingenuous comments would suggest you deserve.
We've continued to address you by a title of respect - "Dr" - even though most of your postings here have nothing to do with your area of expertise. Several other forum members, including participants on this thread, have earned PhDs, and most of them outrank you on the academic totem pole. Yet only you are addressed as "Dr" - out of an abundance of respect for you as our guest. No longer.
The admins coddled your sensitivities when you made a habit of flagging every post you disagreed with (an abuse of the flagging system). Out of respect for you as a guest, we removed a few of these. We did not have to do this.
I personally requested from you video of the stinger-suit changing procedure, and the name of the organization you keep insisting Diana has submitted documentation to. You have pointedly refused both of these reasonable requests.
This forum supports and celebrates real marathon swims. As far as I am concerned, this is not a real swim. Real swims earn the trust of the community through data, documentation, and transparency.
Even now, Diana continues to make self-evidently ludicrous claims, e.g., swimming 98 96 miles during a 48-hour pool swim. I don't believe a word she says, at this point.
You may not have understood this at the outset, but you've now staked your reputation to Diana Nyad and the legitimacy of her claimed achievements. I can understand why you'd go to great lengths to protect this.
@AngelYanagihara
You are clearly frustrated by the limited success of your tactics.
You pick and choose which tiny items to respond to – without addressing the broader themes and issues.
(Example: Your violent reaction to loneswimmer not considering you a swimmer. Example: It is evident that English is not Niek’s mother tongue. Yet, you focus on his use of the word “guilty” purposefully, instead of acknowledging his point that there isn’t any proof that this swim was done (under any set of rules).)
You make broad, sweeping statements without any substance.
(You make statements such as “she never left the water” and “that was not a cake walk” when you know those statements do not address the questions at hand. You claim to have gigabytes of data, but are only willing to share it in private one-on-one meetings in Cork.)
When you accuse the people on this forum of being full of animosity and vitriol you are simply trying to disarm the members with this accusation. It was Ms. Nyad who referred to people here as trolls and it is you who is not listening. It is you who belittles the marathon swimming community by referring to the rules as “technicalities”. The subject matter is repetitive because the original questions regarding this swim have not been answered.
You are obviously playing for an audience beyond the usual participants of this forum. Most likely the press you now claim to speak for. My guess is that the press is not all completely lining up for Ms. Nyad’s story or you wouldn’t keep coming back here making statements that might make good sound bites (while avoiding the fundamental issues surrounding the story). You are refusing to accept that Ms. Nyad’s swims have a history of controversy. Any truly unbiased reporter would review this entire exchange, and maybe all forum exchanges, and would most likely realize that there are many fundamental unanswered questions regarding this story/ swim.
While this community is incredibly supportive of each other, there is always verification of a swim. That is why Observers (with a capital O) exist.
Until you accept that it is Ms. Nyad’s team, who have not, despite your claims, provided the normal and customary information provided by marathon swimmers, questions will remain regarding this story. Tactics will not change that.
If you have sincerity regarding your position, you may want to begin with accepting Bernie’s offer expressed above.
98 miles in 48 hours ????? Where on earth did that come from? Thats 2 miles an hour with no stops. Has any one added up the stop time ? Even 5 minutes rest per hour would equal 98 miles in 44 hours, which equals 2.23 miles per hour. I doubt Diana could swim 2.23 miles in one hour, just once, let alone 48 hours back to back.
Eitherway, I guess in the 48 hours, Diana rested more like 15 minutes an hour, therefore, maybe 7 or 8 hours overall rest. So maybe 98 miles in 40 hours of swimming, which equals 2 & 3/4 miles per hour. Unbelievable.
And there lies the issue with Diana. None of her swims stand up to the simplest scrutiny. And it doesnt help when titled and professional people simply say "she did it". Otherwise those same people would say Diana did a 48 hour swim, and we are supposed to believe them. Sorry, I cannot believe Diana did a 48 hour swim. (maybe she did a 40 hour swim). I cannot believe Diana swam 98 miles, (maybe she covered 56 miles).
What I can't believe the most was why nobody was asked to count the lengths?
Reading the article again, it actually says 96 miles rather than 98. Either way, it's ludicrous. Also, I can guarantee that if any journalist actually fact-checks this, the Xtreme Dream Team will quickly back-pedal and pass it off as a "misunderstanding."
Don't forget that the 48 hour pool swim was a fundraising stunt. You really can't fault her for not following the rules that DN set for herself beforehand, the long breaks, and her switching into a wetsuit in 85+ degree water because she got cold at night. It was all for a good cause. The 800+K investment raised over 104K for a good cause.
It is not my responsibility to provide you my data-videos, images etc. You are not an official body of any sort. I am just a team member, I am not a leader so I am also not willing to act as team liason. I have simply tried to make you globally aware of the inaccuracies you appear to hold tightly. My "reputation" has nothing to do with this swim. I provided expertise to Diana out of goodwill. I was not paid. I do not appreciate the pack attack mentality here. If you need to continue on your "guilty until PROVEN innocent" routine and REFUSE to listen to first hand accounts -then by all means, lads, continue this. I have exhausted any interest I had in providing you with even my general observations recently pejoratively labeled "vague". I have absolutely no intention of providing data to this forum after the goings on here. I do intend to provide these to the Swim Archives that Steve Munatones and others have mentioned exists in Ft Lauderdale. You all are welcomed to go there and peruse my historical records at your own cost. This type of "forum" based cyberbullying and pack mentality of hatred is tiresome and causes me personally to feel upset and discouraged. I realize at this point I should have listened to the wise counsel of others who told me not to engage here. I naively believed that communication would be helpful but it is clear now that despite all the time and efforts expended here there is only an increased level of animosity.
Seriously, we are all devoted to the sport of ocean swimming. I am genuinely worried about loss of life due to jellyfish envenomations. There have been many deaths in this sport. Cardiac arrest during a swim in a healthy adult can clearly be due to the effects of jellyfish venom. My point in responding to Diana's first email to me out of the blue was to be of service to her as I am generally obliged to do if a member of the public requests assistance related to my federally funded research. Spending time on this forum does nothing to advance my research efforts and it seems only to fuel increasing levels of antipathy so I must stop now despite the ongoing taunts and baiting.
Doc,
Please clarify on the many deaths you mention in our sport. I am aware of a recent shark attack but that's it. (Thank God!)
Also, do you know if your client or any other of her crew are going to send their data to the archives?
I repeat what I and many have said previously: if she had brought along 2 Observers, this thread wouldn't be approaching 800 comments.
No one is bullying you. That is the realm of DN (I don't remember any of us calling you a troll).
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
If others on Ms. Nyad’s team advised you not to engage this forum because they knew there are not rational answers to fundamental questions, from a Ms. Nyad team perspective they were right.
(I admit that I don't have enough information to know, but the more I learn about this swim and Ms. Nyad’s other activities, the more I believe it is a story.)
Trying to discredit someone by refuting an unstated claim is a tactic. No one claimed this forum was an official body.
(It is however, a world-wide collection of some of the best marathon swimmers in the world. (I am not one of them.))
Referencing “inaccuracies” without identifying them is a tactic.
(This discussion started with questions, not statements. It has only turned to statements when no answers to the questions were forthcoming.)
You are the person making the bold assertion that “she did it” (without the ability to answer basic questions). No one here bullied you into making that statement.
Making a claim of cyberbullying when none is occurring is a tactic.
Referencing “hatred” when none exists is a tactic.
Your use of “lads” is a tactic. Dismissive at the same time implying that this is a male/ female issue.
You publicly offered to provide "data-videos" and you are now stating it is not your responsibility. This is a tactic.
You have been representing the team, yet now (faced with questions you cannot address) you state you are not a liaison or leader. This is a tactic.
Focusing on a single inflammatory word (guilty) instead of addressing the bigger issues is a tactic.
Stating that you are not being listened to when tactics are not working... is a tactic.
Until you accept that Ms. Nyad’s team has not provided the normal and customary information provided by marathon swimmers, you will remain frustrated with this forum. Tactics will not change that.
@AnthonyMcCarley, yes, I know about her and Paraic (sp?), but I think the good doctor was inferring (wait, implying? I can never get those straight) that there have been many deaths in open water swimming due to ocean creatures.
@AngelYanagihara said: I am genuinely worried about loss of life due to jellyfish envenomations. There have been many deaths in this sport.
Sad though it is (and I wish those swimmers RIP and for their families to find peace), but two EC deaths and the one recently from a shark attack cannot be deemed many.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Something occurred to me a few week ago and I haven't mentioned it anywhere to now, out of respect for @AngelYanigahara.
In her posts she has frequently cited her concern over the safety of swimmers and even the ethics of allowing a swimmer into dangerous waters (though all water is dangerous as we know better than most). In her second-last post above she did so again and mentioned how she was obliged to help any member of the public who contacted her. She had often mentioned fatalities, (often indirectly implying this was something we here don't care about as much as she).
@Chloemccardeldotcom didn't contact @AngelYanigahara for assistance. Yet we do know that @Angel Yanigahara did contact members of @Chloe's team to make sure they weren't using any of her (Angel's) product. In fact, I've been told by a reputable source, that she threatened legal action if they were using it (they weren't).
So we consequently also know that @AngelYanigahara, apparently confident of her new sting formulation, didn't reach out to ensure that @Chloe, about who she directly expressed concern here, was using her product, which I would imagine you would do if a) you were sure of its efficacy and b) as concerned for all swimmers as espoused.
Maybe unless you were part of a team that saw volunteers for other swims as traitors, and wished other swimmers would fail so you could maximise your financial benefits?
Further, in the realm of pure speculation, could it be that a high profile media swim is the best way of eliciting further research funding or even to transition to a well-marketed end product? Research which btw, we here are all interested in and would all benefit from in an end product, as we would from any other competing but less well advertised product?
These are the kinds of question for which I have the Diana Nyad team to thank, having never asked them before of anyone or even considered them.
As Deep Throat says in All the President's Men, "follow the money".
I do intend to provide these to the Swim Archives that Steve Munatones and others have mentioned exists in Ft Lauderdale.
You mean the International Swimming Hall of Fame? The same organization whose leader, Richard Mullins, slandered Walter Poenisch in 1978, on behalf of Diana Nyad?
Your use of “lads” is a tactic. Dismissive at the same time implying that this is a male/ female issue.
This accusation by the Dream Team is quite offensive and has been played by many a DN supporter (just scroll through any comment thread) with zero evidence that this is a motivating factor of any non-believers.
Pathetic... really, but perhaps an effective way to rally the troops and change the subject.
So Dr Angel insists "she did it" and Reuters say she did 96 miles in a pool in 48 hours. So who do we believe? These two worthy sources? Just because they say so? Clearly Diana swam nowhere near 96 miles so how can we ever have any faith in her claims or those made by others in her behalf. UNLESS some of the stuff which Dr Angel says she has, and stuff Dream Team say they have, is divulged. Surely this stuff exists, because they say so. But as we see, just because world class bodies say so, is meaningless when what is said is so obviously inaccurate.
I expect Dream Team have forensically examined their stuff and have found it wanting, otherwise why would they allow this debacle to continue when it could so easily be verified by publishing good data. Maybe the data doesn't exist, maybe the data doesn't answer the questions.
Well, what a silly lady Diana is, to attempt such a fantastic swim and not have the basic documentation and independant evidences. How silly also, to blatantly defy the founding principles of long distance swimming, especially with the dubious claims of previous swims.
We all owe it to our fellow competitors to pay much attention to such evidences when we undertake such world class events. It is such a shame that we cannot all support Diana in such an amazing swim just because she was rubbish at documenting it. That failure has robbed her of much that she deserved, had the evidences supported her swim without question.
I am more upset about such a blatant disregard of documentation. It is not fair to other swimmers coming after her and it is not fair to Diana for (most on this forum) us to feel obliged to disbelieve her, if she really did do this swim.
I know this is old news but I had a thought yesterday while heading out on my morning swim in the ocean. The water temp has begun to drop a bit and the air is beginning to feel like fall. It dawned on me as I was dreading 'winter ocean swimming' that Diana wore 2 swim suits once she was assisted into her stinger suit. Yet another example of a blatant rule violation. Can anyone think of any marathon swim that allows a swimmer to double up on swim suits? She could have taken off her swim suit prior to being assisted into her stinger suit (Penny did and put on her stinger suit by herself with zero assistance) but chose not to for whatever reason. This is not a discussion about stinger suits but rather a swimmer ignoring fundamental swimsuit rules and wearing 2 suits at once.
Ok, I admit it, I receive AARP , the magazine.
And guess who is "interviewed"...center of magazine. Agh... She has given "all the data to the review organization". And says she will go' Where ever needed to do more fundraising for those in need".. nb-- not an exact quote but generally that's the idea.
Sigh.....
I recorded her movie on Showtime with the intent of sacrificing myself for you all so you don't have to watch it. I will then do a review on my blog, pointing out the most important aspects of the film for you all.
Stay tuned!
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Here is an email that is being sent around to some members of our community (not me):
On Monday, November 11, 2013, Manuel de Seixas Correa wrote:
Dear ******,
My name is Manuel de Seixas Correa and I am an Associate Producer working with Figura Media, a documentary production company based out of New York and with offices in Los Angeles and Brazil.
We are currently working on a short form documentary for Vice Media, which explores the technology and science behind Diana Nyad’s swim from Cuba to Florida.
We are looking for marathon swimmers who can give us an interesting perspective on Diana’s accomplishments. Our research has led us to you as a potential interview subject. We have come to learn that you are a highly accomplished member of the marathon swimming community and that you may have interesting opinions about Diana’s swim. I would love to be able to discuss your thoughts at your earliest convenience.
I am cc’ing Thiago Da Costa, the main producer on the project. We would love to answer any questions you may have. We very much look forward to hearing from you. You can call me directly at 323-***-**** or please send me a number where I can reach you.
Perfect. So when I'm 67, I am going to stare up into the sky and tell Diana I'm profusely sorry I questioned her Cuba swim (BUT only if someone says that it wasn't a very nice thing for me to do back when I was young and foolish.)
Ms. Nyad again does a masterful job of manipulation.
Ms. Nyad framed the issue of her swim as only the use of the stinger suit – completely ignoring the bigger issues of how she was able to swim three times her normal speed for extended periods of time and that no publically available information supports her magical current claim. Never mentions that there are photos of her receiving buoyancy support and being touched. No explanation at all regarding her lack of credible Observers.
She even frames EC rules as not credible.
And anyone who challenges her is just jealous.
It is disappointing that the writer allowed this to happen.
Brilliant framing and manipulation. I admire Ms. Nyad’s abilities - just not her swimming or lack of integrity.
Lance Armstrong: the analogy that continues to be applicable: After years of bullying and threats and even lawsuits, LA goes on Oprah to explain himself, his apology to Betsy Andreu and Emma O'Reilly, whom he sued and called a prostitute, only comes after he has been caught and is done to the media, not in person but as part of the great story. He insults Betsy Andreu in the process like DN covertly does in that article.
"Armstrong claims the former head of world cycling knew about his drug abuse and encouraged him to cover up his doping. He says the then president of the UCI, Verbruggen, was complicit in the skulduggery that allowed him to continue in the 1999 Tour de France despite a positive drugs test."
Ruminating on this ( yet again) and I guess my question , for myself as well as DN,
" what do you want your legacy to be"?
I try to do things in such a way that will ameliorate any "legacy " I might have.
I doubt that is how DN is acting. I also doubt that is how LA acting.
Life is short, your legacy hopefully is one that will make you proud or at least satisfied.
I thought that I was over this until the last episode of TV's "Grimm". A race of mer-people, conveniently called "Nyads". The mere mention of the name turned my stomach.
I thought that I was over this until the last episode of TV's "Grimm". A race of mer-people, conveniently called "Nyads". The mere mention of the name turned my stomach.
At this point it seems clear the promised documentation is not forthcoming. And if she/they actually released something now, 3 months after the fact, would you believe it?
Diana Nyad utterly lacks credibility. I'm not sure what more there is to discuss.
Meh. Does it really matter? That's why we have the MSF Awards. Have you voted yet, Niek?
Diana will have her book tour, her corporate speaking gigs, her TED talks, etc. She's selling inspiration, and people will always buy that, regardless of the details.
Her claims have been evaluated by the community of her peers, and have been found lacking in probity. A moral victory is a victory.
Comments
I plan to provide these to the Ft Lauderdale archives. I have gigabytes of information.
I understand the team has provided the swim data to the appropriate parties.
Take this example: I don't see any data here, no real information. Very different from your statements about your research.
Where can I find those images, footage and notes? What has been provided after the reports? We are still asking the same questions, because they have not been answered with anything but fanboyism. Really interesting that you use the word "authentic" here. Nobody had any doubts yet, even when I have the feeling that the reports are being quietly updated.
Really? I have just seen the pressure from DN personal friends. It is interesting that impartial reporters are not succumbing to that peer pressure. Maybe I have missed something. Can you validate your statement?
Really too bad. I can suggest you some upload services. I can even offer you an account on my personal server to upload that data and make it available on your conditions. Size is not a problem. If you can't upload files, we'll find a way without any hassle for you.
Will you take this offer?
100% of swimmers, without exception, and not just Channel swimmers, whom have contacted me in any way since I started the series have agreed with me.
I wasn't claiming that 100% of all swimmers agreed, as can be noted above. I was writing of those who have contacted me. Obviously, I didn't include you, but I'm happy to amend my statement to 99%.
I categorically reject your claim that I in any way bullied you..
Expressing my considered antithetical opinion is in no way bullying. I have only been polite and as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have edited and removed comments that I felt unfair or bullying to you given different time zone constraints etc. However the exigencies of moderation are more difficult that are often apparent, and I can't rewrite every comment by others in line with a tone I'd prefer or use myself. Where and when I & @evmo were able to respond or edit we have done so.
I haven't been blogging for almost four years in the hope a subject would arise that would turn me into a hate figure. All my tens of thousands of words about swimming are intended to be informative, that is my "mission". In about 800 blog posts the only other subjects that I've ever written that are controversial are my criticism of NYCSwim over MIMS2013 and criticism of Total Immersion as an open water coaching technique.
Tom Doyle just bumped into me and a few friends at the bar, some of us had previously attended one of his talks for swimmers about jellyfish, organised by another forum member (@ColmBreathnach). The meeting wasn't planned, it wasn't even a meeting, just a chat at the bar while we were ordering drinks. It wasn't a snub or insult to you. In fact I also said to Steve @Munatones three times over the weekend that he & I should sit down together to chat but
neither of us seemed to be able to find that time.
I didn't set out to avoid him or you, though you seem to imply I avoided you.
More than you avoided me?
Like @Niek, I was quite visible at the conference. My name and his were on the agenda with yours. I was also on & off the podium for two hours and wandering around at dinner taking photos for the organisers. Honestly Dr. Yanighara, I'm Irish, at a one-time event in Ireland, organised by members of my club, & full of Channel swimmers and others I know. I was busy, but I was not hard to find...
Also, I'm just an opinion. If I am in any way influential, wouldn't it have benefited you to find me? But then wouldn't it have benefited Diana Nyad to answer my questions more directly or to have addressed this community when it raised concerns previously? You see Dr. Yanigahara, I don't think I have changed the opinion of many here. I just wrote what I think based on what I have seen and read, as have all the others here. The fact is just that what I think aligns with what others here do also.
You say we should change the forum statement that we don't celebrate swimmers? But we do celebrate swims and swimmers and will continue to so do. The point is repeatedly made that swimmers who are so used to doing such, for whom DN should be good, are so sceptical about this event.
I am aware that I have been characterised, as I said on the blog, as the bad man from Ireland. Funnily enough, there have been character references for Diana Nyad, but I haven't felt the need. Should I do so however, I feel comfortable that they would be provided by others here. My record is not one of antagonism, but of trying to help others. Though I admit I don't play swimming politics of trying the be everything to everyone. My voice is only more obvious because I write a blog and I'm an Admin here, but I have repeatedly said I do not consider my opinion more important, less so than many here in fact. It's just that mine is better known than some.
I understand you are surely an honourable person. I'd consider myself one also and it for that reason that I write.
We are achieving nothing with this impasse. I and others have repeatedly, ad nauseum seemingly, tried to explain that verification of swims is done through Official Observers, not through the statements of swim crew who are invested in different ways. Example: When Sylvain Estadieu recently completed his English Channel butterfly, I was only crew. The two Official Observers were the ones who decide whether his swim was "good", not me. He was swimming under a rules burden that those of who swim front crawl aren't. Those rules in fact were clear beforehand, and I have a photo of @Sylle holding the sheet with the rules on dry land before the swim started, and there is complete video by the pilot Mike Oram of the entire 18 hours & 42 minutes.
Therefore when you say that I am spreading inaccuracy, I am writing from an expert viewpoint of someone who has spent considerable time on this subject recently trying to figure it out, far more that I would have chosen. I am applying the same standards I would apply to any swim that was trying to avoid the necessary scrutiny we all here must undergo.
loneswimmer.com
The admins and members of this forum have been exceedingly polite to you - perhaps more polite than such disingenuous comments would suggest you deserve.
We've continued to address you by a title of respect - "Dr" - even though most of your postings here have nothing to do with your area of expertise. Several other forum members, including participants on this thread, have earned PhDs, and most of them outrank you on the academic totem pole. Yet only you are addressed as "Dr" - out of an abundance of respect for you as our guest. No longer.
The admins coddled your sensitivities when you made a habit of flagging every post you disagreed with (an abuse of the flagging system). Out of respect for you as a guest, we removed a few of these. We did not have to do this.
I personally requested from you video of the stinger-suit changing procedure, and the name of the organization you keep insisting Diana has submitted documentation to. You have pointedly refused both of these reasonable requests.
This forum supports and celebrates real marathon swims. As far as I am concerned, this is not a real swim. Real swims earn the trust of the community through data, documentation, and transparency.
Even now, Diana continues to make self-evidently ludicrous claims, e.g., swimming
9896 miles during a 48-hour pool swim. I don't believe a word she says, at this point.You may not have understood this at the outset, but you've now staked your reputation to Diana Nyad and the legitimacy of her claimed achievements. I can understand why you'd go to great lengths to protect this.
You are clearly frustrated by the limited success of your tactics.
You pick and choose which tiny items to respond to – without addressing the broader themes and issues.
(Example: Your violent reaction to loneswimmer not considering you a swimmer. Example: It is evident that English is not Niek’s mother tongue. Yet, you focus on his use of the word “guilty” purposefully, instead of acknowledging his point that there isn’t any proof that this swim was done (under any set of rules).)
You make broad, sweeping statements without any substance.
(You make statements such as “she never left the water” and “that was not a cake walk” when you know those statements do not address the questions at hand. You claim to have gigabytes of data, but are only willing to share it in private one-on-one meetings in Cork.)
When you accuse the people on this forum of being full of animosity and vitriol you are simply trying to disarm the members with this accusation. It was Ms. Nyad who referred to people here as trolls and it is you who is not listening. It is you who belittles the marathon swimming community by referring to the rules as “technicalities”. The subject matter is repetitive because the original questions regarding this swim have not been answered.
You are obviously playing for an audience beyond the usual participants of this forum. Most likely the press you now claim to speak for. My guess is that the press is not all completely lining up for Ms. Nyad’s story or you wouldn’t keep coming back here making statements that might make good sound bites (while avoiding the fundamental issues surrounding the story). You are refusing to accept that Ms. Nyad’s swims have a history of controversy. Any truly unbiased reporter would review this entire exchange, and maybe all forum exchanges, and would most likely realize that there are many fundamental unanswered questions regarding this story/ swim.
While this community is incredibly supportive of each other, there is always verification of a swim. That is why Observers (with a capital O) exist.
Until you accept that it is Ms. Nyad’s team, who have not, despite your claims, provided the normal and customary information provided by marathon swimmers, questions will remain regarding this story. Tactics will not change that.
If you have sincerity regarding your position, you may want to begin with accepting Bernie’s offer expressed above.
Eitherway, I guess in the 48 hours, Diana rested more like 15 minutes an hour, therefore, maybe 7 or 8 hours overall rest. So maybe 98 miles in 40 hours of swimming, which equals 2 & 3/4 miles per hour. Unbelievable.
And there lies the issue with Diana. None of her swims stand up to the simplest scrutiny. And it doesnt help when titled and professional people simply say "she did it". Otherwise those same people would say Diana did a 48 hour swim, and we are supposed to believe them. Sorry, I cannot believe Diana did a 48 hour swim. (maybe she did a 40 hour swim). I cannot believe Diana swam 98 miles, (maybe she covered 56 miles).
What I can't believe the most was why nobody was asked to count the lengths?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/10/us-usa-nyad-swim-idUSBRE9990ZT20131010
Reading the article again, it actually says 96 miles rather than 98. Either way, it's ludicrous. Also, I can guarantee that if any journalist actually fact-checks this, the Xtreme Dream Team will quickly back-pedal and pass it off as a "misunderstanding."
http://www.marathonswimmers.org/nyad-abc/
A compilation of CNN coverage of the Diana Nyad swim & controversy:
http://www.marathonswimmers.org/nyad-cnn/
A compilation of NBC News coverage of the Diana Nyad swim & controversy:
http://www.marathonswimmers.org/nyad-nbc/
Dear Forum Members,
It is not my responsibility to provide you my data-videos, images etc. You are not an official body of any sort. I am just a team member, I am not a leader so I am also not willing to act as team liason. I have simply tried to make you globally aware of the inaccuracies you appear to hold tightly. My "reputation" has nothing to do with this swim. I provided expertise to Diana out of goodwill. I was not paid. I do not appreciate the pack attack mentality here. If you need to continue on your "guilty until PROVEN innocent" routine and REFUSE to listen to first hand accounts -then by all means, lads, continue this. I have exhausted any interest I had in providing you with even my general observations recently pejoratively labeled "vague". I have absolutely no intention of providing data to this forum after the goings on here. I do intend to provide these to the Swim Archives that Steve Munatones and others have mentioned exists in Ft Lauderdale. You all are welcomed to go there and peruse my historical records at your own cost. This type of "forum" based cyberbullying and pack mentality of hatred is tiresome and causes me personally to feel upset and discouraged. I realize at this point I should have listened to the wise counsel of others who told me not to engage here. I naively believed that communication would be helpful but it is clear now that despite all the time and efforts expended here there is only an increased level of animosity.
Seriously, we are all devoted to the sport of ocean swimming. I am genuinely worried about loss of life due to jellyfish envenomations. There have been many deaths in this sport. Cardiac arrest during a swim in a healthy adult can clearly be due to the effects of jellyfish venom. My point in responding to Diana's first email to me out of the blue was to be of service to her as I am generally obliged to do if a member of the public requests assistance related to my federally funded research. Spending time on this forum does nothing to advance my research efforts and it seems only to fuel increasing levels of antipathy so I must stop now despite the ongoing taunts and baiting.
Take care out there folks and BE SAFE,
A. Yanagihara
Please clarify on the many deaths you mention in our sport. I am aware of a recent shark attack but that's it. (Thank God!)
Also, do you know if your client or any other of her crew are going to send their data to the archives?
I repeat what I and many have said previously: if she had brought along 2 Observers, this thread wouldn't be approaching 800 comments.
No one is bullying you. That is the realm of DN (I don't remember any of us calling you a troll).
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
If others on Ms. Nyad’s team advised you not to engage this forum because they knew there are not rational answers to fundamental questions, from a Ms. Nyad team perspective they were right.
(I admit that I don't have enough information to know, but the more I learn about this swim and Ms. Nyad’s other activities, the more I believe it is a story.)
Trying to discredit someone by refuting an unstated claim is a tactic. No one claimed this forum was an official body.
(It is however, a world-wide collection of some of the best marathon swimmers in the world. (I am not one of them.))
Referencing “inaccuracies” without identifying them is a tactic.
(This discussion started with questions, not statements. It has only turned to statements when no answers to the questions were forthcoming.)
You are the person making the bold assertion that “she did it” (without the ability to answer basic questions). No one here bullied you into making that statement.
Making a claim of cyberbullying when none is occurring is a tactic.
Referencing “hatred” when none exists is a tactic.
Your use of “lads” is a tactic. Dismissive at the same time implying that this is a male/ female issue.
You publicly offered to provide "data-videos" and you are now stating it is not your responsibility. This is a tactic.
You have been representing the team, yet now (faced with questions you cannot address) you state you are not a liaison or leader. This is a tactic.
Focusing on a single inflammatory word (guilty) instead of addressing the bigger issues is a tactic.
Stating that you are not being listened to when tactics are not working... is a tactic.
Until you accept that Ms. Nyad’s team has not provided the normal and customary information provided by marathon swimmers, you will remain frustrated with this forum. Tactics will not change that.
Unfortunately Susan Taylor died while attempting the English Channel this year.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/15/world/europe/channel-swimmer-death/
I have not heard of any connection to jellies.
Sad though it is (and I wish those swimmers RIP and for their families to find peace), but two EC deaths and the one recently from a shark attack cannot be deemed many.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
In her posts she has frequently cited her concern over the safety of swimmers and even the ethics of allowing a swimmer into dangerous waters (though all water is dangerous as we know better than most). In her second-last post above she did so again and mentioned how she was obliged to help any member of the public who contacted her. She had often mentioned fatalities, (often indirectly implying this was something we here don't care about as much as she).
@Chloemccardeldotcom didn't contact @AngelYanigahara for assistance. Yet we do know that @Angel Yanigahara did contact members of @Chloe's team to make sure they weren't using any of her (Angel's) product. In fact, I've been told by a reputable source, that she threatened legal action if they were using it (they weren't).
So we consequently also know that @AngelYanigahara, apparently confident of her new sting formulation, didn't reach out to ensure that @Chloe, about who she directly expressed concern here, was using her product, which I would imagine you would do if a) you were sure of its efficacy and b) as concerned for all swimmers as espoused.
Maybe unless you were part of a team that saw volunteers for other swims as traitors, and wished other swimmers would fail so you could maximise your financial benefits?
Further, in the realm of pure speculation, could it be that a high profile media swim is the best way of eliciting further research funding or even to transition to a well-marketed end product? Research which btw, we here are all interested in and would all benefit from in an end product, as we would from any other competing but less well advertised product?
These are the kinds of question for which I have the Diana Nyad team to thank, having never asked them before of anyone or even considered them.
As Deep Throat says in All the President's Men, "follow the money".
loneswimmer.com
What is it they say about lying down with dogs?
Pathetic... really, but perhaps an effective way to rally the troops and change the subject.
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
I expect Dream Team have forensically examined their stuff and have found it wanting, otherwise why would they allow this debacle to continue when it could so easily be verified by publishing good data. Maybe the data doesn't exist, maybe the data doesn't answer the questions.
Well, what a silly lady Diana is, to attempt such a fantastic swim and not have the basic documentation and independant evidences. How silly also, to blatantly defy the founding principles of long distance swimming, especially with the dubious claims of previous swims.
We all owe it to our fellow competitors to pay much attention to such evidences when we undertake such world class events. It is such a shame that we cannot all support Diana in such an amazing swim just because she was rubbish at documenting it. That failure has robbed her of much that she deserved, had the evidences supported her swim without question.
I am more upset about such a blatant disregard of documentation. It is not fair to other swimmers coming after her and it is not fair to Diana for (most on this forum) us to feel obliged to disbelieve her, if she really did do this swim.
http://www.athleta.net/2013/10/22/notable/
Well done, @emkhowley
AP reporter Jennifer Kay predicted "rage" on the Forum [LINK], so please don't fulfill her prediction.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
"The Other Shore: The Diana Nyad Story."
No.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
And guess who is "interviewed"...center of magazine. Agh... She has given "all the data to the review organization". And says she will go' Where ever needed to do more fundraising for those in need".. nb-- not an exact quote but generally that's the idea.
Sigh.....
Stay tuned!
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Diana Nyad's Great Regret: Endurance Icon Once Attacked a Record Cuba-to-Florida Swim
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303559504579198073878055530
Ms. Nyad framed the issue of her swim as only the use of the stinger suit – completely ignoring the bigger issues of how she was able to swim three times her normal speed for extended periods of time and that no publically available information supports her magical current claim. Never mentions that there are photos of her receiving buoyancy support and being touched. No explanation at all regarding her lack of credible Observers.
She even frames EC rules as not credible.
And anyone who challenges her is just jealous.
It is disappointing that the writer allowed this to happen.
Brilliant framing and manipulation. I admire Ms. Nyad’s abilities - just not her swimming or lack of integrity.
loneswimmer.com
"Armstrong claims the former head of world cycling knew about his drug abuse and encouraged him to cover up his doping. He says the then president of the UCI, Verbruggen, was complicit in the skulduggery that allowed him to continue in the 1999 Tour de France despite a positive drugs test."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2509002/LANCE-ARMSTRONG-WORLD-EXCLUSIVE-UCI-helped-cheat-way-Tour-France-titles.html
" what do you want your legacy to be"?
I try to do things in such a way that will ameliorate any "legacy " I might have.
I doubt that is how DN is acting. I also doubt that is how LA acting.
Life is short, your legacy hopefully is one that will make you proud or at least satisfied.
FYI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naiad
Diana Nyad utterly lacks credibility. I'm not sure what more there is to discuss.
Diana will have her book tour, her corporate speaking gigs, her TED talks, etc. She's selling inspiration, and people will always buy that, regardless of the details.
Her claims have been evaluated by the community of her peers, and have been found lacking in probity. A moral victory is a victory.
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.