Interestingly I read somewhere, I think in @Munatones book, about putting petroleum jelly around your ankles so when your OW competitors grab your ankles to get ahead of you they can't get a grip.
I'll try to find the reference.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
I've swum in a few mass start open water swims and I can ensure you that this sort of contact is not isolated to the triathlon world...
It is almost certainly a cause of anxiety for poor or inexperienced swimmers, but for a beach start I'm not sure it is a major safety concern. Swimmers can easily avoid it as well by starting at the back of the pack or at the edges.
I’m not sure how you officiate a mass start like this one at the Kona Ironman Championship.
In years past I’ve slimed my legs up with Vaseline for the large mass starts at the La Jolla and Waikiki Rough Water swims. It does work, if they start to grab they let go in a hurry.
The Kona Ironman Championship is main event for the Ironman Corporation, the only ones who can disqualify them is them. Not going to happen for this for profit corporation. However as noted in link on a previous thread they are experimenting with changes in some of there events this year in hopes of making the starts a bit more tolerable.
I'd be interested to hear what the real open water swimming world has to say about contact. There was a case in NZ late last year in which a leading swimmer was DQed after swimming across the path of a following swimmer. He argues that, as the leading swimmer, FINA rules gave him right of way. But the organisers accused him of unsportsmanlike conduct. Some, random contact is unavoidable in pack swimming. Comes with the activity. Doesn't mean it's malign. Can't be completely scrubbed out.
That said, it's incumbent on those with influence at least to encourage a culture of sportspersonlike behaviour, which should be about allowing swimmers to swim unimpeded by intentional obstruction, while recognising the right of a leading swimmer to choose their line.
I have a good friend in SISC who is known for trying to drown his mates during races, he's very fair in that he reserves it for his friends...
I've never initiated contact during a race, but if someone does try to swim on top of me to intimidate me or push me off my line in my middle-of-the-pack position, I would't back off from it. And if someone tries to take an inside line, I don't give mine up easily. Skin has been lost.
The passage that @Niek is quoting at the start of this thread is a tip for simulating
race conditions. It's suggesting that people should deliberately initiate contact in practice so that they'll be prepared for contact in a race. That's good advice. In a race, 90% of contact is accidental, but it's still scary if you're not prepared for it.
I've swam in 25 open water events in the past 3 years (not including kayak-escorted events like Swim the Suck or SCAR). I even did the swim for Ironman Arizona (>2,500 swimmers in a mass start). I've never seen a problem with unsportmanlike conduct. I've seen contact that might be unnerving, but nothing that would give a person an unfair advantage or be seriously dangerous.
Yes, I have had people grab my ankles. I have no idea why they would want to do that, but I can shake them off with a flutter kick pretty easily. It ends up being an advantage for me because my adrenaline goes thru the roof, and I speed up.
If someone muscles his/her way past me, I use that to my advantage too. I stay on their feet and catch a draft for a little while. If they really are faster than I am, I get a free speed boost. If not, I take a few moments of rest and sprint to overtake them. Again, the adrenaline makes me a lot faster.
Contact, even if it is deliberate, hardly ever hurts. The only way you're going to hurt someone is with a closed fist or a breast stroke kick.
Open Water Swimming is a contact sport. It's exciting, and it can be scary. Everyone has a choice of hanging back or swimming wide to avoid contact. If you're experienced/brave enough to get into the eye of the storm, you have a huge advantage.
I'm appalled at the idea of trying to tame this Most Fun of All Sports.
There was a case in NZ late last year in which a leading swimmer was DQed after swimming across the path of a following swimmer. He argues that, as the leading swimmer, FINA rules gave him right of way. ...while recognizing the right of a leading swimmer to choose their line.
I'm okay with this rational, as long as the leading swimmer is taking a direct line to the finish or next buoy. If I were a judge, I'd take that into account. (I don't know the NZ case, so I'm not saying that guy did or did not take a direct line.)
Oh, and @oceanswims, I corrected your misspelling of "recognizing."
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
I've done a number of swim legs on triathlon relays and I've never been beaten up as badly as during those brief swims.
I'm pretty mild-mannered by any standard and in the first and second races I was shocked at how I was getting clobbered and I didn't retaliate. In the third race, I let my inner "Jersey boy" come out and anyone who made more than casual contact got better than they gave.
Interestingly, they often start the relay teams with the women here and the woman are just as bad as the men. However, I won't retaliate against a woman (call me "sexist", I suppose) and have ended up with some pretty nasty nail scratches and bruises as a result.
I agree, triathletes are bad news in terms of roughness.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
Contact and drafting ain't the same as deep scratches and blue eyes.
I agree, but it still happens. I've accidentally kicked friends in the face before during race starts. I didn't even realize I had done it until they said something after the race. To an extent, if you are going to stick that many swimmers in that confined of an area, you're going to get contact, and some if it is going to be nasty. I agree that if it is intentional, the person should be red carded and removed from the water. But, as has been mentioned previously in the thread, how do you expect to patrol the start of a 5,000 person race?
It's not your fault if you kick someone (unless you're swimming breaststroke). Feet don't have eyes. It's a swimmer's job to keep his/her head out of people's feet. If you can't find a foot-free spot to stick your head at the start, you have to doggie paddle for a moment. I put my head down a second or two before the gun goes off to make sure I have room for my face.
During the start and around the first turn, I kick a little more gently. During those times, I stop kicking for a moment if my foot connects with someone. But you can't count on other people being experienced/nice enough to do that. It's best to watch for feet.
I've been kicked in the face plenty before I learned all this. It doesn't really hurt or leave a mark, unless you have the bad luck to shove your goggles into someone's foot.
The only type of retaliation that makes sense is winning. For one thing, it's impossible to know if the person was actually trying to be agressive. "Never explain by malice that which can be explained by incompetence." It's common for the person beating you up to actually think that you're the one doing the beating. That happens when they don't swim straight or are sighting on you instead of feeling for the bubbles.
Retaliation also wastes mental and physical energy. There's no way to *get* someone without slowing yourself down. Better to just beat the person to the finish line.
@WaterGirl except for (unless you're swimming breaststroke) I agree with you.
If someone before you is swimming breaststroke you have to take a wider berth around that person.
True. But if you stop and swim breaststroke in traffic, you're a Dick
But Jacob Gilden, of Arlington, Va., said he prefers the challenge of a mass start.
“I was really disappointed when they changed the swim,” Gilden said. “I won’t do another race where they don’t do a mass start, honestly. I think it’s a critical part of the race, and to get rid of it is really unfortunate.”
Jacob should take up kickboxing.
He already has. He's just disappointed that he won't be able to put it into practice.
in my 3rd open water swim i got caught in the middle of a small pack. The guys in front of me where too slow but I couldn't get around them immediately as I was boxed in. The guys behind were a little faster. I had to do a little breast stroke just to stop swimming into the guys but the poor guys behind me did get a few smacks in the head. I felt really bad but i didn't know what else to do. Eventually a gap opened and i got out to the side of the pack. Next time I'll just position myself better at the start if possible
I had to do a little breast stroke just to stop swimming into the guys but the poor guys behind me did get a few smacks in the head. I felt really bad but i didn't know what else to do.
It's like with trafic. The one coming from behind has to watch out and keep distance.
I don't think that very many people actively seek out contact/combat, but it does happen. There are a lot of people in not a lot of space. BUt @Niek is exactly right, you need to keep an eye on what's going on around you.
I've heard race car drivers put it this way: The front of my car is my responsibility to keep out of trouble. The back of my car is the responsibility of the guy behind me. I don't think it's exactly that simple, but I think it's a pretty good point.
I've been in dozens of triathlons and there is a lot of contact related to close proximity. VERY seldom is it damaging. I have NEVER heard of, nor experienced, anyone intentionally interfering with another swimmer. I'm sure it has happened but it would be super unusual. The writer of Niek's original statement suggesting swimmers create a practice environment where they get some contact is a good idea. When you're not used to it, the contact can be unnerving, can cause you to lose your stroke at least, and panic at worst. Getting used to shrugging it off is important. Kinda like getting used to shrugging off that unknown slimy thing that brushes your leg while in merky OW.
marlin said:
In one a one mile ocean race this weekend, someone grabbed firmly onto my ankle and pulled.
Why would someone do that? I'm a middle of the pack to top 1/3 swimmer.
Get in his draft and stay there. The whole race. Close. So your fingertips are just lightly brushing his toes every 3-4 strokes. Not only does this actually have some practical value (unlike the ankle grab which makes no sense at all!), psychologically, its WAY worse. :ar!
tortuga said:
I've been in dozens of triathlons and there is a lot of contact related to close proximity. VERY seldom is it damaging. I have NEVER heard of, nor experienced, anyone intentionally interfering with another swimmer. I'm sure it has happened but it would be super unusual. The writer of Niek's original statement suggesting swimmers create a practice environment where they get some contact is a good idea. When you're not used to it, the contact can be unnerving, can cause you to lose your stroke at least, and panic at worst. Getting used to shrugging it off is important. Kinda like getting used to shrugging off that unknown slimy thing that brushes your leg while in merky OW.
The first tri I ever did (circa 1990) was an in-water start in a deep but very narrow lake (actually, a 100-foot-wide canal with brick walls). I was fresh out of college and in top swimming shape, confident I'd be in the front of my wave (for the swim, anyway). So when they called our age group, I got right in and swam to the starting line (it was literally a bungee line). When the announcer said "30 seconds," the elbows started flying. I was shoved backward as people clawed their way forward. Right when the horn went off, some guy put his hand on my shoulder and shoved me down and himself over the top. Once you go under in a situation like that, game over. It's like falling down during a stampede. There was about a 5-10 second stretch where I thought I was going to die. I had to swim to the bank (it was very narrow) and grab the wall to catch my breath and regroup.
"Lights go out and I can't be saved
Tides that I tried to swim against
Have brought be down upon my knees
Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."
My experience with triathlons is limited because I don't have a bike or any interest in getting one. But I've done the swim leg a couple of times of the tri my coach directs. This particular tri is small, maybe a couple hundred participants at most, and so it may thus have a less frantic feel. But I haven't noticed the outrageous behavior people describe. Occasionally someone will collide and one guy started to swim over me but apparently unintentionally b/c he moved aside and apologized. The coach let's people know from the start that stuff like that won't be tolerated (and he reminds people during his ow clinics that such things show no class. But I think too there's a good vibe about his races, and people respect him. Seems to me an RD sets the tone, not that there's a guarantee that everyone will cooperate, but at least that they will know what's expected.
I also did the Stars and Stripes Aquathlon (I do enjoy the swim and run, just not keen on biking). Again nevery had an issue w anyone being rude or overly aggressive, even though that's an event I would think was popular w triathletes. But I was in a slow wave, so the hard core gang had already started. Not too much bumping into anyone but occasional contact, such as brushing against people now and then. Actually found that kind of contact reassuring bc it meant I wasn't way off course or behind.
I've always had the philosophy that it's not how you start, it's how you finish. Doesn't work so good in sprints but it sure works in the long view... So I let the big guys fight it out at the start and I stay out of the fray.
As a relative new comer to open water swimming but a long time pool swimmer I can verify that the pool drills mentioned at the beginning of this thread are sooooo valuable in practice!!! Us pool swimmers are not used to any type of contact, so getting used to it by horsing around with your lane mates is a great way to get rid of the anxiety.
As far as contact and conduct goes...I think triathletes and dedicated swimmers speak different languages and this is where the conflict arises. In the tri-world it seems acceptable to take or try to use any advantage they can (why else does anyone buy a $750 wetsuit that is no good to scuba in?) This also leads to people who have NO business in the front of the pack pushing themselves to the start line ahead of people who should be leading. Why anyone would want to turn themselves into an obstacle is beyond me! But again, we are speaking different languages.
I learned to avoid wetsuit clad "swimmers"... but if I can't, well the old water player in me tends to come out.
Like others on this thread have noted, when I first started open water racing in the early 90's I was completely ignorant and shocked at how races started. A former collegiate swimmer, I just thought on a two mile event swimmers would go out in a controlled fashion knowing that had two more miles to swim. Oh how wrong I was getting swum over big time in the start of my first OW race in Boulder, CO. Yes the learning curve was steep, but learn I did. Putting nearly an entire jar of Vaseline on my legs and shoulders for the La Jolla Rough Water swim, if they grabbed it wasn't for long, nor without consequences as know they had vaseline on their hands. One year at La Jolla as I edged myself up for a frontline starting position two swimmers up there started talking about how they hoped they'd make the 1:45 cutoff for the 3-mile event, along with the swimmer next to me, we promptly informed them they were about to get severely pummeled ;-) The older I get the less I want to play the physical game but sometimes on the shorter local races with triathletes, I just can't help myself plus it's fun to take the tri's to school and do roll over there back to get inside position, or a marker buoy roll turn with a kick......
I recently did some private swimming lessons for a rookie triathlete dude. The first one was about stroke technique and the second one was all about open water. We practiced sighting, drafting, turns and how to deal with contact. I pushed him off his line, cut him off, swam over him and tried to knock his goggles off. We were both cracking up, it was a hilarious good time. I think he went off to his triathlon as a pretty well-prepared noob. He said he wasn't worried about getting clobbered any more.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
Comments
I'll try to find the reference.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
I may have opportunity to find out soon. More later.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
It is almost certainly a cause of anxiety for poor or inexperienced swimmers, but for a beach start I'm not sure it is a major safety concern. Swimmers can easily avoid it as well by starting at the back of the pack or at the edges.
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
In years past I’ve slimed my legs up with Vaseline for the large mass starts at the La Jolla and Waikiki Rough Water swims. It does work, if they start to grab they let go in a hurry.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
http://www.marathonswimmers.org/forum/discussion/472/ironman-news-about-swimming-changes-
That said, it's incumbent on those with influence at least to encourage a culture of sportspersonlike behaviour, which should be about allowing swimmers to swim unimpeded by intentional obstruction, while recognising the right of a leading swimmer to choose their line.
I've never initiated contact during a race, but if someone does try to swim on top of me to intimidate me or push me off my line in my middle-of-the-pack position, I would't back off from it. And if someone tries to take an inside line, I don't give mine up easily. Skin has been lost.
loneswimmer.com
race conditions. It's suggesting that people should deliberately initiate contact in practice so that they'll be prepared for contact in a race. That's good advice. In a race, 90% of contact is accidental, but it's still scary if you're not prepared for it.
I've swam in 25 open water events in the past 3 years (not including kayak-escorted events like Swim the Suck or SCAR). I even did the swim for Ironman Arizona (>2,500 swimmers in a mass start). I've never seen a problem with unsportmanlike conduct. I've seen contact that might be unnerving, but nothing that would give a person an unfair advantage or be seriously dangerous.
Yes, I have had people grab my ankles. I have no idea why they would want to do that, but I can shake them off with a flutter kick pretty easily. It ends up being an advantage for me because my adrenaline goes thru the roof, and I speed up.
If someone muscles his/her way past me, I use that to my advantage too. I stay on their feet and catch a draft for a little while. If they really are faster than I am, I get a free speed boost. If not, I take a few moments of rest and sprint to overtake them. Again, the adrenaline makes me a lot faster.
Contact, even if it is deliberate, hardly ever hurts. The only way you're going to hurt someone is with a closed fist or a breast stroke kick.
Open Water Swimming is a contact sport. It's exciting, and it can be scary. Everyone has a choice of hanging back or swimming wide to avoid contact. If you're experienced/brave enough to get into the eye of the storm, you have a huge advantage.
I'm appalled at the idea of trying to tame this Most Fun of All Sports.
www.WaterGirl.co
AZ Open Water Swimming on Facebook
I'm okay with this rational, as long as the leading swimmer is taking a direct line to the finish or next buoy. If I were a judge, I'd take that into account. (I don't know the NZ case, so I'm not saying that guy did or did not take a direct line.)
Oh, and @oceanswims, I corrected your misspelling of "recognizing."
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
I'm with you @WaterGirl. The potential for contact and the benefit of drafting are things I like about OW swimming.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
I'm pretty mild-mannered by any standard and in the first and second races I was shocked at how I was getting clobbered and I didn't retaliate. In the third race, I let my inner "Jersey boy" come out and anyone who made more than casual contact got better than they gave.
Interestingly, they often start the relay teams with the women here and the woman are just as bad as the men. However, I won't retaliate against a woman (call me "sexist", I suppose) and have ended up with some pretty nasty nail scratches and bruises as a result.
I agree, triathletes are bad news in terms of roughness.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
I agree, but it still happens. I've accidentally kicked friends in the face before during race starts. I didn't even realize I had done it until they said something after the race. To an extent, if you are going to stick that many swimmers in that confined of an area, you're going to get contact, and some if it is going to be nasty. I agree that if it is intentional, the person should be red carded and removed from the water. But, as has been mentioned previously in the thread, how do you expect to patrol the start of a 5,000 person race?
During the start and around the first turn, I kick a little more gently. During those times, I stop kicking for a moment if my foot connects with someone. But you can't count on other people being experienced/nice enough to do that. It's best to watch for feet.
I've been kicked in the face plenty before I learned all this. It doesn't really hurt or leave a mark, unless you have the bad luck to shove your goggles into someone's foot.
The only type of retaliation that makes sense is winning. For one thing, it's impossible to know if the person was actually trying to be agressive. "Never explain by malice that which can be explained by incompetence." It's common for the person beating you up to actually think that you're the one doing the beating. That happens when they don't swim straight or are sighting on you instead of feeling for the bubbles.
Retaliation also wastes mental and physical energy. There's no way to *get* someone without slowing yourself down. Better to just beat the person to the finish line.
www.WaterGirl.co
AZ Open Water Swimming on Facebook
True. But if you stop and swim breaststroke in traffic, you're a Dick
He already has. He's just disappointed that he won't be able to put it into practice.
Jon
I don't think that very many people actively seek out contact/combat, but it does happen. There are a lot of people in not a lot of space. BUt @Niek is exactly right, you need to keep an eye on what's going on around you.
I've heard race car drivers put it this way: The front of my car is my responsibility to keep out of trouble. The back of my car is the responsibility of the guy behind me. I don't think it's exactly that simple, but I think it's a pretty good point.
In one a one mile ocean race this weekend, someone grabbed firmly onto my ankle and pulled.
Why would someone do that? I'm a middle of the pack to top 1/3 swimmer.
Coat your ankles with petroleum jelly. At least in triathlete-organized OW races...
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Also, maybe carry a dive knife strapped to the leg (for show only) to scare off potential cheaters....
Besides the ankle pull, there was a lot of feet tapping and at one point, contact with my back that I thought was an accident.
I've been in dozens of triathlons and there is a lot of contact related to close proximity. VERY seldom is it damaging. I have NEVER heard of, nor experienced, anyone intentionally interfering with another swimmer. I'm sure it has happened but it would be super unusual. The writer of Niek's original statement suggesting swimmers create a practice environment where they get some contact is a good idea. When you're not used to it, the contact can be unnerving, can cause you to lose your stroke at least, and panic at worst. Getting used to shrugging it off is important. Kinda like getting used to shrugging off that unknown slimy thing that brushes your leg while in merky OW.
Get in his draft and stay there. The whole race. Close. So your fingertips are just lightly brushing his toes every 3-4 strokes. Not only does this actually have some practical value (unlike the ankle grab which makes no sense at all!), psychologically, its WAY worse. :ar!
The first tri I ever did (circa 1990) was an in-water start in a deep but very narrow lake (actually, a 100-foot-wide canal with brick walls). I was fresh out of college and in top swimming shape, confident I'd be in the front of my wave (for the swim, anyway). So when they called our age group, I got right in and swam to the starting line (it was literally a bungee line). When the announcer said "30 seconds," the elbows started flying. I was shoved backward as people clawed their way forward. Right when the horn went off, some guy put his hand on my shoulder and shoved me down and himself over the top. Once you go under in a situation like that, game over. It's like falling down during a stampede. There was about a 5-10 second stretch where I thought I was going to die. I had to swim to the bank (it was very narrow) and grab the wall to catch my breath and regroup.
"Lights go out and I can't be saved
Tides that I tried to swim against
Have brought be down upon my knees
Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."
My experience with triathlons is limited because I don't have a bike or any interest in getting one. But I've done the swim leg a couple of times of the tri my coach directs. This particular tri is small, maybe a couple hundred participants at most, and so it may thus have a less frantic feel. But I haven't noticed the outrageous behavior people describe. Occasionally someone will collide and one guy started to swim over me but apparently unintentionally b/c he moved aside and apologized. The coach let's people know from the start that stuff like that won't be tolerated (and he reminds people during his ow clinics that such things show no class. But I think too there's a good vibe about his races, and people respect him. Seems to me an RD sets the tone, not that there's a guarantee that everyone will cooperate, but at least that they will know what's expected.
I also did the Stars and Stripes Aquathlon (I do enjoy the swim and run, just not keen on biking). Again nevery had an issue w anyone being rude or overly aggressive, even though that's an event I would think was popular w triathletes. But I was in a slow wave, so the hard core gang had already started. Not too much bumping into anyone but occasional contact, such as brushing against people now and then. Actually found that kind of contact reassuring bc it meant I wasn't way off course or behind.
I've always had the philosophy that it's not how you start, it's how you finish. Doesn't work so good in sprints but it sure works in the long view... So I let the big guys fight it out at the start and I stay out of the fray.
As a relative new comer to open water swimming but a long time pool swimmer I can verify that the pool drills mentioned at the beginning of this thread are sooooo valuable in practice!!! Us pool swimmers are not used to any type of contact, so getting used to it by horsing around with your lane mates is a great way to get rid of the anxiety.
As far as contact and conduct goes...I think triathletes and dedicated swimmers speak different languages and this is where the conflict arises. In the tri-world it seems acceptable to take or try to use any advantage they can (why else does anyone buy a $750 wetsuit that is no good to scuba in?) This also leads to people who have NO business in the front of the pack pushing themselves to the start line ahead of people who should be leading. Why anyone would want to turn themselves into an obstacle is beyond me! But again, we are speaking different languages.
I learned to avoid wetsuit clad "swimmers"... but if I can't, well the old water player in me tends to come out.
Like others on this thread have noted, when I first started open water racing in the early 90's I was completely ignorant and shocked at how races started. A former collegiate swimmer, I just thought on a two mile event swimmers would go out in a controlled fashion knowing that had two more miles to swim. Oh how wrong I was getting swum over big time in the start of my first OW race in Boulder, CO. Yes the learning curve was steep, but learn I did. Putting nearly an entire jar of Vaseline on my legs and shoulders for the La Jolla Rough Water swim, if they grabbed it wasn't for long, nor without consequences as know they had vaseline on their hands. One year at La Jolla as I edged myself up for a frontline starting position two swimmers up there started talking about how they hoped they'd make the 1:45 cutoff for the 3-mile event, along with the swimmer next to me, we promptly informed them they were about to get severely pummeled ;-) The older I get the less I want to play the physical game but sometimes on the shorter local races with triathletes, I just can't help myself plus it's fun to take the tri's to school and do roll over there back to get inside position, or a marker buoy roll turn with a kick......
I recently did some private swimming lessons for a rookie triathlete dude. The first one was about stroke technique and the second one was all about open water. We practiced sighting, drafting, turns and how to deal with contact. I pushed him off his line, cut him off, swam over him and tried to knock his goggles off. We were both cracking up, it was a hilarious good time. I think he went off to his triathlon as a pretty well-prepared noob. He said he wasn't worried about getting clobbered any more.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.