The Forum (2012 - ??) -- Use It or Lose It
Hi everyone,
First -- thank you for the incredible discussions, mutual education, personal connections, occasional controversy, and shared passion for long-distance swimming that this community has fostered over the past 12 years and 4 months.
I suppose it won't be controversial to acknowledge the obvious: It's been quiet in this little corner of the interwebs lately. As it has been for years, for many/most independent web forums on niche topics (those that haven't already been shut down).
I won't belabor the point, other than to say: If you want the Marathon Swimmers Forum to continue, please use it. It's now mid-July and the peak of the northern-hemisphere swim season, and there's a lot happening and a lot to discuss.
Obviously, mega-corp social media like Facebook and Instagram have seen lots of traction in the marathon swimming community and elsewhere. And that's great, if it's what the community wants and is best served by.
The Marathon Swimmers Forum doesn't need to be FB or IG to serve a purpose. But it does need regular activity to justify the ongoing technical maintenance.
The mods (@thelittlemerwookie and @lakebagger ) and I will re-evaluate in 3 months (October). Until then, please make your preferences known.
Comments
Perhaps we shouldn't have banned mlkcct. I bet the traffic here was nuts during that period. One thought I have had about this forum is what I've seen on other forums. They have a sticky section or some way of having the common questions easily accessible.
I know we have that categories section over on the right side of the page and it has beginner questions clearly labelled there. Yet the same questions keep getting asked. I don't know anything about web design or forum design, but I'm convinced there has to be a way to guide someone to the info they are looking for.
Secondly, I really like this forum because it is focused. I do not use FB or IG or the dead bird because I couldn't stand to wade through the clutter. I know I used to post more on this forum, and I don't so much these days. Part of that reason is that I'm trying to listen more and speak less, (an ongoing and almost insurmountable fault of mine.) I have a tendency to use 100 words when six will do. And part of the reason is that there is only so much one can say about long distance swimming that hasn't been said already.
Third, I really like reading people's swim reports. However it's pretty tough to put one together and make it an interesting read for everyone. Not everyone has a talent for writing. I know I used to like reading ssthomas, but she has a great way with words as well as doing absolutely ridiculous swims. So getting content like this on the site is a challenge.
So I guess all of our jobs from now is to use it or lose it. An apt metaphor for swimming and life.
@curly I agree with you-- although I am a regular fb user, I prefer this forum due to the organization and lack of clutter. I started as a forum lurker in 2013 and eventually started contributing more. I've learned so much from the original forum participants and am sad that many of them have moved on!
Nowadays, I try to write stuff I hope will help someone out there lurking around reading my random musings. I have the same habit you do of using 100 words when six will do, but I always enjoy your comments. If the forum does close down some day in the future, I'm definitely going to miss reading what you have to say!
For reading swim reports, there are some great ones at https://marathonswimmers.org/swims/. Of course, it's not the same as here where you can comment on what people have written and interact with them.
…also, wow the forum looks like it just got a makeover! Pretty!
The previous site styling "theme" wasn't compatible with the back-end upgrades I made, so this is now the default theme of the forum software with a couple customizations like the header image. There are some random weirdnesses, especially on mobile, that I'll try to fix. Thanks everyone for bearing with the changes.
The Forum has indeed gotten quiet and Facebook seems to have become a more productive source of swim updates. I regret that. I'll try and use the forum more regularly again. How about pushing new posts more actively on Fb to attract more traffic?
Milko
https://db.marathonswimmers.org/p/milko-van-gool/
I've loved being part of this, Evan, but use it more to read advice from the greats. I don't feel I can add anything constructive to most threads but I love to read them. I also loved reviewing swims for the database. If we don't use the forum enough, does the database disappear with it? I am, as always, hugely grateful for the wealth of knowledge you offer here and acknowledge the enormous effort that goes into keeping everything updated and monitoring posts. Whatever the future holds for the forum, thank you very much to you and your team of moderators and admins.
@KatieBun The database is a fully separate project that I'll continue to maintain and develop. I wish I had more time for the database, actually.
Some historical perspective - back in 2012, the Forum was MSF. It was the only project. Over time we added the Rules, annual awards, race calendars, Documented Swims (and a review+ratification process that you've helped with -- thank you!!), the longest swims list, and then finally the database in 2017. You can see how the work adds up.
Of the limited time I / we have to work on MSF, how can we best leverage it to develop projects that are most impactful and most important to the community of marathon swimmers?
It took me 3-4 hours the other day, to perform a minor upgrade on the forum software, so it's more resistant to hacks. And even now various things are broken from the upgrade and there's a list of things I need to fix. Would this time be better spent adding new results to the database, or compiling swim documentation for people?
These are dilemmas that people who run Facebook groups don't have to deal with
Some historical perspective - back in 2012, the Forum was MSF. It was the only project. Over time we added the Rules, annual awards, race calendars, Documented Swims (and a review+ratification process that you've helped with -- thank you!!), the longest swims list, and then finally the database in 2017. You can see how the work adds up.
I certainly can. All of these projects are of immense importance to the long distance community. I'm extremely grateful that they will continue....and I'll happily help with anything I can. Thank you, Evan!
(Sorry @evmo , I couldn't find the button to cite properly so I used markdown directly)
I don't think the forum should disappear, as there are hundreds of interesting comments which are still proving useful, and they shouldn't be lost in time, like tears in rain. But I understand that back-end maintenance must be time consuming (I have and still run a few blogs, so I can relate). So @evmo 's questions above are key. Would time be better dedicated to other projects? Could we share duties with these other projects, e.g. updating the database? As @KatieBun , I'd be willing to help - and I'm fully aware that, for instance, this year I have neglected the update of the Spanish calendar, which would have taken me just a couple of hours in April/May. But sure this call for action would help for a stronger commitment from my side.
dieciseisgrados.com/
While FB, IG, X, etc. have pros,....I would like to echo the benefit of having this forum as a niche location for posting, researching, and reading about OWS. Not all MSF members are also connected in various social media accounts. This is a great place for newbies to come to dip their toes into the pool, so to speak. It's a launching point, a gathering spot, and a source of like-minded strangers (at times), and friends to support and cheer each other as we swim alllllll over the world.
I see alot of new people asking questions and instead of answers, they just get redirected to old threads. I know for some, it might be annoying to get asked the same questions (training volume, nutrition, etc.) but just redirecting every question to an old thread absolutely kills the momentum of that persons question and doesn't encourage new conversation.
If the goal of this site were to maximize "activity" then you're probably right that merging common questions into previous threads is sub-optimal. But it never has been. The reason for this practice is that we've found it's more effective at accumulating knowledge and expert opinion on a topic, rather than rehashing the same questions over and over in dozens of nearly identical threads, probably with fewer experts participating because they've gotten tired of spinning their wheels. Merging threads is also far better for searchability, compared to FB or IG where in some cases it can be challenging to find discussions that happened yesterday.
@curly makes a good point that we could improve how the forum makes the "mega threads" on certain topics accessible and obvious from the main page of the forum.
I appreciate what you're saying but you did say you want people to use it or lose it and increase discussion. If I am constantly getting redirected to old discussions, that will not encourage NEW discussion. It also discourages new people, speaking from my experience, from creating new threads on the forum or asking any questions at all because someone might have asked that same questions 2 years ago when I was not around. For me, it is easier to ask a question and get an answer rather than scouring through hundreds of pages to see if my question has been answered previously. Also, maybe someone has something NEW to say that was not said previously but then that doesnt happen.
@musclewhale89 I like a more organized conversation and am more likely to engage or contribute when I know what I say is going to stay in a thread that continues on into the future, as opposed to a new thread which will gain a few comments and then be forgotten a few days later.
Just my preference. Then again, I love reading through old threads to see what very successful marathon swimmers were saying back when they were still developing as athletes.
I've found this to be an incredibly useful site - in fact the only site for which I've registered and which sits square in the middle of my home screen, checked at least daily. I don't post because as a total newbie who has only done 5 & 10 k races I don't have experience to comment. :-) yet :-)
Thanks everyone for your thoughts and suggestions so far.
I need to make another clarification -- at this point we're not considering making the Forum "disappear" or taking it off the internet entirely. There's way too much valuable content in here, especially from the first few years.
What's under consideration is to make the Forum "read-only" - so you can still peruse the archives, but user logins and further comments are disabled. It would be considerably less work to maintain in this state, while keeping all the great discussions from years past.
If the Forum serves the community just as well (or nearly as well) in a read-only state, then it's worth it to free up my time (and Jessica's and Caroline's) for other projects. On the other hand, if you want to keep creating new discussions and comments on the Forum, this is your chance
I found the site useful when starting out. Lots of valuable information particularly for newbies to Marathon swimming . Also still useful when looking at new locations/events to swim and contacts in those locations. I don't use as much as did but I still check back from time to time when I come up against a blank for new stuff. Read only might work too. But it might be good to have some periodic updates - for new areas/aspects of Marathon Swimming that might arise,
There have been a few threads created where someone is looking for a kayaker or guidance for a particular swim. It's a great place to reach out for local knowledge. Because of the focus of the forum, it probably yields more quality answers than the broader social media offerings.
Also, as exasperating as it is to see the same questions asked over and over, I have to say sometimes that is a faster way to get an answer than exploring the search button. For example, in my house when I need to find something, I just ask my wife where it is. Aggravates her to no end, but I get the answer and don't have to rummage around the house for my car keys or whatever.
I'll just add that I've valued this forum in the few years I've been marathon swimming. It has been a great source of information, so I'm glad to see that the history won't disappear. It's actually the first place I still go on Saturday mornings when I'm having my coffee, but I have noticed fewer posts this year. Since I am mostly a lurker, I guess I can't complain. I do think the content is better than FB, though. Thanks for managing it all this time.
Please keep the forum active and open for posting. These MSF forums are the most valuable aspect of my MSF membership. Even if membership isn't required to access this forum, I still pay for a membership because I know it costs money to keep this forum going.
These forums have been incredibly helpful to me in preparing for my big swims. I agree that people being redirected to megathreads does have a tendency to deter people from posting, but at the same time I would like to see people keep contributing to the megathreads with new ideas, products, and such. I'm guilty of not posting as much as I should, so I'll rectify that starting now. Thank you for your time and work on this over the years, and for giving us the opportunity to weigh in.
I think we're seeing the results of "search this sub" (in reddit terms) - lots of great historical discussion, but not a lot of new voices, suggestions, or experiences. There's so many great threads from the mid 2010s that helped me a ton when training for Tahoe, but it's frustrating to search all the nutrition suggestions in a thread and half of them are no longer made and new ones on the market aren't mentioned. I agree with folks who suggest some kind of sticky or better "megathread" options, and also just a general cultural change amongst the forum members to encourage more newbie/recent discussion (while also kindly redirecting people if needed). I am looking to improve my swimming this winter and start marathon swimming again so I will be back here more often!
**Thank you so much @evmo and @thelittlemerwookie and @lakebagger for your work here! **
I logged on yesterday for the first time in a while - I don't have any long swims planned, and don't have a lot of free time. But yesterday I happened to get video of someone named Victor's Tahoe length finish 8/13 -- I would love to track him down to give it to him (he wore a MSF cap). (Q. is there a good place to post this?) _ Followup -- I think I found him... just needed to look a little harder._
I think the forum would be the first place I'd look I was traveling somewhere and wanted local OW swimming info/introductions to swimmers/paddlers I could potentially meet up with.
Consider applying smarter search/AI rather than "merging (read-only?) threads". A FAQ-bot would be a useful feature if someone out there wants a pet project -- people could type in their questions and the bot could cull threads for answers. Sorry I don't have experience to offer from.
I would suggest a smart search functionality, if possible, because sometimes for non English speakers is challenging to use the exact words. This would help the use of past information, and potentially new. Maybe an integration with an AI LLM, considering this as a knowledge base.
In terms of new threads - there are surely less new topics. If it's affecting the available time to do other more important things.. life, MSF related.. i would suggest making it a knowledge base.. have content creators and that's it.
If there is no new content at all and only past threads, at one pct the up to date information will become less and less..therefore more dificult to find and the overall less valuable..so why not close editing, no smart search. Freeze and that's it.
Re: suggestions of "smart search" and "AI integration" etc ....
100%, I agree that the technology behind this site could be improved with either (a) budget to pay skilled software developers to hack on dated forum software that is no longer actively developed, or (b) unlimited time on my end, unconstrained by other projects such as LSDB that reach a lot more people.
Neither option is available at this time, unfortunately.
This comment became unintentionally long, but everything I wrote here is from the heart and articulated concisely to the best of my ability:
Why this forum will probably die
Even though I am quite new to open water swimming, and this forum, it makes me really sad but I have to agree that this forum will probably eventually die out, just like almost every other niche internet forum.
New potential users pretty much always flock to all the big social media companies before looking for any better alternatives, so it really doesn't matter how good this forum is, it is at a massive inherent disadvantage. This means that these search and AI feature proposals will simply delay the inevitable.
What pains me the most, is that these big companies (Meta, Reddit, Google) aren't exactly known for treating their communities well, so this community will suffer so much when this forum is lost.
My experience as a new open water swimmer looking for a community
The first thing that came into my search results was Openwaterpedia. I spent ages browsing this. I was really interested in marathon butterfly swims and Vicki Keith (I still consider her 80km fly to be perhaps the greatest swim on record). Openwaterpedia did not have community interaction however, so my search continued.
Secondly I went to Reddit where most small communities have their central hub. Most people would stop here. The only reason I didn't stop here was because I didn't like how their was so few experienced users, and I happened to stumble across a comment by LoneSwimmer which linked to his blog.
I then read through his blog for a while, and happened to read an article which talked about this forum.
This is a problem. I only discovered this forum (which is everything I wanted) through a series of lucky steps connecting mostly disconnected areas of the community.
Potential solution
In my view, the only potential way to save an independently owned forum like this is to have everyone pull together in the community to use it as their central hub. An amazing example of this is The Magic Cafe.
Unfortunately, this is the opposite of my experience.
I know there are some long rifts between Munatones and the admins of this forum, and there are probably a bunch of other grudges people hold that I am not aware of. From what I read a while back, I actually think the disagreements are very justified. But by not working together, everyone damages each other and the big socials rise up.
This forum would be very different if it was advertised on Openwaterpedia, and I expect Openwaterpedia would be way better if it had help from senior members of this community. Admins on r/openwaterswimming could direct users to this site or resources related to it (similar to what LoneSwimmer currently does).
Everyone would benefit except the big socials, and this community would be so much better for it.
Problems
I am sure I got some facts wrong in this post, maybe even the whole idea has a massive flaw. Even if I am right about everything, I will be so hard to execute this solution that perhaps it is best to just give up and save time and energy trying to persuade senior people to do things. Please let me know what you think.
Long time lurker now trying to use it so we dont lose it!
I’m a relatively recent joiner and was pretty active in my early phase - notably as I planned and clocked up my first ‘big’ ocean swims (well big by my standard).
And I learned lots of useful stuff that was not so easily available elsewhere.
Also, I’m unusual in not being on FB or any other SM (I detest it). I acknowledge I miss out on stuff but the downside is more than outweighed by the upside on not being distracted by mostly terrible SM content.
Anyway, life goes in phases and whilst I still swim every day, I’m not currently actively planning anything special. Hence my ‘need’ to log in here is going through a quieter phase too.
I set up and run a niche forum of my own - NZ Sailing - because my other passion is being on the water not just in it. Probably less than 100 users and less than 25 regulars.
The way I keep that going with a relatively small user base is 3-fold:
Simplicity. I have only got 3 sub-forums (Water-related, General and Classifieds).
The only content is forum posting traffic. So I have no ‘workload’ and I can goes days without logging on if I’m busy with real life!
I set up the General forum to allow general discussions unrelated to sailing. This means we have topics on all the usual stuff from politics to climate change and everything in between. That forum is about 2-3x more active than the Sailing forum itself and the result is that I get lots of daily traffic to the website, even for a small niche forum in NZ.
Lastly, I have never moderated the forum. I have a prominent sticky ‘Welcome’ thread which explains the expectations (all obvious stuff).
On the very few occasions we’ve had big blowups, I have stepped in as Admin to ask for some calm but to never edit or delete a post. My rationale for this is that often the hot-headed poster has regrets the following day(s) and I make a point of leaving their shameful words on public display to incentivise them to do better in the future.
I find this works better than bans and moderation of posts because users know if they over-step the mark their words will not be (deleted / hidden) but visible forever. I find that’s the best form of moderation. A couple of people have decided to ‘resign’ of their own accord but I’ve never banned anyone.
So maybe this forum could survive by simplifying the content to pure forum posting only and rethinking the approach to moderation. Resulting in minimal workload for the Administrators / volunteers?