Marathon swims during the pandemic
slknight
Member
I was pretty shocked to see MSF sanctioning a swim that occurred yesterday. Is marathon swimming now an essential activity? How was social distancing maintained on the boat? Is it legal to take a boat charter right now?
Comments
Are you sure that social distancing is enforced at the place where the swim is occurred? At least there is absolutely no problem to do marathon swimming at my place right now. We are currently not allowed to do mass-participation races but a solo swim with only one crew and one observer is absolutely no problem right now.
Very curious about this as well. I have many clients asking me about their open water swims, and I am advising against anything that might require the use of essentials services, such as EMTs.
In middleagedom there aren’t any activities guaranteed not to need essential services.... such as EMTs
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
@slknight I think it would depend on where you live, what activities are currently, legally allowed in that area and the personal decisions of the small number of people supporting the swim.
To begin with I don't believe that its MSF job to enforce or punish people not following protocol, their job is to determine if the swimmer followed MSF rules for the swim which is what they did. I know many of you live in very hard hit areas and that the protocols and societal norms are very strict. Just to give y'all another perspective here in South Carolina, USA we have had 385 deaths, which is a little more than our average traffic fatalities for that period of time. So the protocol here is very different than say NYC. Here we have reopened bars, gyms, hair salons, etc. As we all navigate this new world I expect that we will all draw different lines based on where we live, who we live with, what we might need to do for our famines finances and the realities of our individual situations.
Except the swim in question is in an area which has extremely strict lockdown rules. I suspect that just the act of observing this swim broke some protocol.
With respect, Susan and Sydne, you don't know what you're talking about.
The swim in question was conducted in accordance with currently enforced rules of the city and county of San Francisco, which permit outdoor recreation, open water swimming, and boating. The swim was documented by a San Francisco based observer (me) and piloted by a San Francisco-based captain, who operates a boat out of a San Francisco marina that is fully open for business. The swimmer could throw a rock out of her condo window and hit the beach where she started and finished. In an abundance of caution, we all had face coverings and avoided close contact and equipment sharing.
These are facts, Susan and Sydne, you could have discovered with a quick private message. The fact that you chose to call it out publicly on the Forum tells me everything I need to know about you and your motivations.
I'm so relieved the swim-quarantine police are waiting alert at their keyboards, monitoring social media for any perceived transgressions they can shame. I feel safer already!
I'm going to go WAY out on a limb and suggest that this particular response is not helpful. I was a lawyer for almost two decades and I'll give you a piece of advice from those days. Sure, write the angry response. But don't send it! Cool down and then think about how you want to respond!
It sounds like there were good reasons for having that swim. Excellent. But -- perhaps -- it might have been a good idea to have explained those reasons before the swim took place, or as a part of the promotion of the swim.
But surely you anticipated there would be questions! You and anyone reading the forum or the open water periodicals KNOW that people are sitting around trying to reconcile their desire to swim in open water with a completely unprecedented situation. I don't know about you, but this is my first lockdown. Of course people are going to have questions about swims like this! It's a no-brainer.
MSF should be a leader in this situation. It's promoting the swim, but it should also be promoting what steps were in place to make sure that the swim could be done under current conditions. Those steps are new and different from what we are all used to. They would also have some educational value as they show others what things they might want to do themselves.
Thanks for the advice @jbs, much appreciated. I did let it sit overnight, and in the morning Susan's post was still disingenuous. The ill-informed, cross-border social media shaming on FB (and now here) has gone too far. This swim was subject to the laws of San Francisco, not Maine. Happy to engage in good-faith discussion, which from Susan's first post this has not been.
This may be a San Francisco swim but you promote yourself and MSF as a leader in the international swimming community, setting an example for all of standards you claim you are interested in maintaining.
This is a time when we come TOGETHER as a community and having permission and the perceived RIGHT to do this doesn't make it appropriate or set a good example.
As a coach, I currently have swimmers who are looking at things like this and thinking "Oh, I guess I can go swim at my local pond. It'll be fine." In the interest of their safety and the fact that most aren't acclimatized, I am concerned that they will look at a swim like this and think theirs are okay.
Last year, we had a devastating loss in our community. Isn't it time we took safety even more seriously and reflected upon the why of all of this and WHEN it is okay?
And quite honestly, you know nothing about my motivations and don't really know anything about me. But you could have discovered that with a quick private message. The fact that you chose to call me publicly on the Forum tells me everything I need to know about you and your motivations.
Since MSF is now limited to the SF area and has ceased to concern itself with being a national or international presence, I will be leaving the forum. I am sorry to hear that MSF has decided to scale back it's reach, but hey, you do you!
OK by me! MSF is not a governing body and always has been purely opt-in. You don't have to use the Forum, you don't have to use the swim rules, you don't have to use the database, and you don't have to document your swims.
Best of luck!
Thanks for presuming what my motivations are, Evan! I just celebrated my 22nd anniversary with my husband, and I'm sure he would be the first to admit that he doesn't always know them. So, well done!
For the record, I have done zero social shaming on FB regarding swimming. I intentionally did not ask these questions on the FB post because I did not want to detract from an excellent swim. I thought this forum was a place to ask questions regarding safety, regulations, etc. And I was merely asking questions.
Since I both work for a hospital and my sister works in a COVID ICU on the West Coast, I have been following the COVID situation perhaps a little more closely than the average person. I follow a doctor on Twitter named Bob Wachter who is the Chief doctor at UCSF. He constantly tweets about how locked down SF is and was featured in a NYTimes article about SF's overall response to the pandemic. So it just seemed kind of shocking to me that chartering a boat for a swim such as this would be allowed.
Knowing that South Carolina has not been terribly locked down, I was not surprised or bothered by @j9swim's recent swimming and observing. But I have heard much different things about SF and California.
You may say that MSF is not a governing body, but the fact is that many people look at MSF that way. And I think it is worth a broader discussion about how MSF should be representing itself and promoting swims during this time. Maybe nothing illegal was done, but promoting a swim like this right now certainly appears to "not be reading the room."
Please help me understand this. Who is "The Room"? What are the Rules of the Room? We must not acknowledge or recognize any swims, until.... when? Does the Room judge when the pandemic is over and we are all safe to mention swims that happen in locations where swimming is perfectly legal?
Regarding “the room”: please keep in mind that the room is very large, includes people of many different geographical locations and that many of us in this metaphorical room experienced joy upon reading the post about the swim being discussed (the 41 positive comments and 193 “likes” attest to that). It sounds like at least 1-2 people were not supportive of the swim, maybe more, but I’m going to argue that the rest of us are also “in the room”.
My personal opinion is that I would like to see people continue to swim if they feel it’s important to do so, can follow local rules and take any additional measures they can think of to reduce the risk. It makes me feel happy when I see the resilience of people being able to pursue things while adjusting the manner in which they do them to minimize any associated risk to their health and that of their local community.
I’ve been dismayed by some of the social media posts out there conveying a sense of jealous contempt toward those able to swim right now. I applaud MSF and this swimmer for their leadership in going ahead with this swim in the manner in which it was done.
Congrats to the swimmer on their documented swim!
And yes, marathon swimming is essential.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
Ah, the classic "those who disagree must be jealous haters" defense. < roll eyes >
Look, I don't presume to speak for the whole room. Personally, I find it offensive that MSF is promoting a non-essential activity (when they are NOT allowed) when 90K+ people have died already in this country. If you don't, I really can't help you out.
Just for the record, I do not think you are a jealous hater, maybe just an understandably concerned and upset citizen, like myself. I do apologize, as I can see how what I wrote could be taken that way.
What I meant to say is that the past few months, I have noticed people on my social media feeds stating that they are “jealous”, followed by contemptuous statements made about other swimmers. That makes me super sad and I wanted to point that out, in addition to my other point.
Thank you for clarifying.
In other news:
The NBA promotes basketball
...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
For real, you are offended by somebody swimming? Or, is it OK to swim, but no one is allowed to talk about it? That's a really interesting perspective!
May I suggest that if you are offended by MSF congratulating people on successful swims, just unfollow the FB page, and remove the Forum from your bookmarks.
I'm not entirely sure what you and Sydne hoped to accomplish with this thread? Riling up a shame mob?
Anticipating a response something like this:
Sounds like marathon swimming is allowed in the San Fran area. Or did I misunderstand the observer's comments above?
And is it just communicable diseases that make marathon swimming non-essential? Or should we not be swimming now due to all the opiate deaths in this country? Or the pedestrian traffic deaths? Cardiovascular deaths?
The beauty of this country (and many others) is that you still don't have to swim, @slknight. But for me, I'm swimming in open water the first minute I can.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
And I am not entirely sure why you persist with the personal attacks. I asked a question and was met, almost immediately, with unwarranted hostility rather than a discussion about the responsibility we all have right now, to ourselves and to one another, to be as safe as possible. This could have been a productive dialogue about how we proceed as a sport, and instead, you have chosen to attack Susan and I.
In my opinion, promotion of a non-essential activity in a time of crisis is irresponsible. And congratulating someone on a swim is one thing, choosing to actively participate in something that goes against the intended impact of a stay-at-home order is another thing entirely.
I am weary of the bullying behavior, and if anyone is guilty of attempting to "shame" people, I do not see it being those of us who are asking a question. I will be leaving but I recommend that you take a good hard look at what is happening to what was once a beloved community space and WHY that is occurring.
What a laugh! Pushing back against disingenuous, thinly veiled antagonistic "questions" does not constitute bullying. Sorry this didn't work out the way you hoped.
The swim is conducted according to internationally recognised channel rules, full stop.
Sorry but this is irrelevant. I also question the truth of the italicized part. I see nothing wrong with swimming. I also have a friend who just started open water this February (partly due to pool closure) and now regularly swimming with me ~5 km on weekends, sometimes up to 8 and we are now discussing the possibility to do a documented marathon swim.
This is typical American thinking the U.S. is the world which is locked down as a whole.
Personally, I find YOU offensive to say that it is offensive that the MSF is promoting an activity where it is allowed and improves mental health when our entertainment is severely restricted.
That's what I am thinking as well.
It is because, right at the beginning, your knowledge is not true at all (assuming the observer comments are true).
Stay at home order?! That's irrelevant to me as the area I live has never been one. I really hope the MSF to promote more swims and encourage people to swim. Because YOU have a stay at home order doesn't mean that we have a stay at home order if you and we live in different cities or even countries.
I just can't believe this thread, which starts with invalid assumptions, has grown 20 replies over a single night, and I hope to see documented swims from parts of the world where the epidemic is over, especially by new swimmers.
I haven't been around these parts much lately, but it's good to see this forum is still capable of some good-ol-fashioned drama! Remarkable how a pandemic brings out the self-righteous busybodies.
Yes I suppose it could have been. Unfortunate how the original post was framed as a condemnation rather than invitation to a dialogue.
Congratulations to the swimmer for providing some inspiration in these uncertain times.
My fellow Dolphin @bruck suggested I weigh in on this. I work for a city agency in SF that frequently deals with questions relating to the public health order. First, please bear in mind this is a moving target, and today's information will be outdated next week.
While no rule addresses marathon swimming specifically, a boat-escorted solo swim would not in itself violate the order, provided social distancing requirements are met. As a poster above mentioned, outdoor activities including open water swimming and boating are permitted. Beyond that, I expect the only required clearance for a solo swim would be with Vessel Traffic Service.
Not permitted would be large-group format events such as triathlons. As many of you know, the DC and our next-door neighbors, with their many shared spaces and equipment, remain closed for now.
Hope this helps.
Just got to read this thread and I find this discussion unsettling with unlikely responses to begin with.
I too, had the privilege of observing and documenting a marathon swim last week, here in our country. The swim was conducted in full compliance with the current Covid-19 local restrictions.
I can share the words of the swimmer after she successfully completed her swim: "Weeks of confinement without decent training made it a very tough and gruelling swim for me. I was ready to quite at mid-point, but this swim was very important to me. It is a message of hope for all of us. The new normal gives us the possibility to reunite with our passion. We can overcome this pandemic. So, I managed to overcome the breaking point and regained power to finish stronger on the second half of the swim. It was a great feeling of accomplishment and I am extremely happy for it."
I urge all of us to reunite towards our future. Same as we are in fighting this pandemic, then also by finding our way back to normality. For me, normality and sanity is connected to the open water and if anyone can manage it, then we can, and should be proud of it.
The thing about a world wide pandemic is that it isn't the same worldwide. Is open water swimming an "essential activity?" where I live: yes, yes it is. Our governor included "outdoor physical exercise" as an essential activity that was exempt from any of the stay at home orders for the duration they were in effect. I understand how other states may have handled it differently. Open water is a risk, always has been always will be. There are lot of people in the general population that would question any open water attempt as taking an unnecessary risk. But we, as OW swimmers, work with great people with local knowledge to limit that risk in a safe and responsible manner.
I don't know much about what is going on in New York but if Dave Barra says it's safe to resume then I'm ready to jump in. I don't know much on the ground in Israel, but if Guy Cohen says he can take me safely across the Sea of Galilee I'm going first chance I get. Evan has the local SF Bay knowledge and if he can get the green light from the local authorities I'll follow right behind.
With most of my summer plans up in smoke seeing Robin's great success was additional motivation to keep training and to hold out hope for the end of the season. Big congrats to Robin and big thanks to Brent, Kim, and Evan for making it happen!
I wholly agree with recognizing swims that are "... in full compliance with the current Covid-19 local restrictions." I encourage that type of conduct. As soon as inter-island travel restrictions are lifted, I intend to swim at least one of the Maui County Channels.
**....motivation to keep training and to hold out hope for the end of the season. **
I hope your end of season includes a trip to Hawaii.It will be good to swim together again.
The captain who piloted Robin's Angel Island swim forwarded me a recent FAQ from the Port of San Francisco Maritime Operations, regarding the rules for charter fishing boats (which also apply to charter solo swim escorts):
Re: @JWinSF's comment above:
Correct, and we were in continuous contact with Vessel Traffic before and during Robin's swim.
The Hawaii State Government has lifted restrictions on the number of passengers allowed on boats as part of the Under new COVID-19 “Act With Care” guidelines, up to 10 people not necessarily from the same household, including passengers and crew, may be on a boat at a time in all four counties. As soon as we lift our 14 day quarantine on arrivals, the Hawaii Channels will be open for business.
Kidding aside, promoting a lawful marathon swim during quarantine doesn't strike me as a failure to lead. Leadership presumes a shared objective or moral absolute. Our only shared objectives in this community are to swim far, keep accurate records and be reasonably safe while doing so. I suppose it also seems fair to expect people representing MSF to abide by the law (although that is not always true, as implied by the protesters I expect to pass on the way home tonight).
It sounds like @evmo complied with the SF social distancing order and CDC "guidance". Beyond that, isn't it really just a matter of opinion and choice? I recognize that there is a very wide range of arguably valid opinions on SD and that it is a remarkably polarizing subject (even within my own home). I read the opposing argument as @evmo 's choice put others at risk either by encouraging similar behavior or by potential transmission. Correct? I don't believe there is scientific evidence that either of these creates any greater individual or collective risk than those presented by the sport itself (or driving to the lake, for that matter). Anecdotally, not swimming for the last 90 days has added 12 pounds to my frame and raised my blood pressure into the hypertension range. I'm pretty sure there is more scientific evidence of the risk presented by those two conditions than any risks presented by the open water swim I have planned for this weekend.
And the CDC doesn't recommend against outside, appropriately distanced exercise. And neither do the various state and local HHS administrators responsible for the shelter-in-place orders. I've read, diagrammed and dissected at least 20 of these orders for the purpose of providing legal advice to businesses attempting to comply with them. I can't recall even one that prohibited exercising outside either individually or in small groups (but in fairness, that would have been beyond the scope of my analysis). By the time the first amendments came around (perhaps 2 weeks in), most shelter-in-place orders included golf(!!) as an essential activity.
My point is not to argue that @evmo was right or the "room" is wrong (although I'm not really sure @evmo is the one not reading the room on this one). My point is that @evmo, acting on his own reasonable, valid beliefs within bounds of the law, on a subject outside of the narrow scope of MSF's mission, can't fairly be characterized as a failure to lead. He seems to be leading to me, just not in a direction with which you agree.
Until we have reliable data on COVID-19 and the efficacy of SD, tolerance will need to suffice.
"Lights go out and I can't be saved
Tides that I tried to swim against
Have brought be down upon my knees
Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."
Latest from the CSA:
Unfortunately there is now another surge of local cases 2 weeks after relaxation of control late June in Hong Kong. Social distancing is re-implemented again. Everything is now closed again starting from tomorrow including gyms, pools, etc. Races planned late July have to be postponed. This has happened in other countries as well.
Evidence suggests that COVID won't be over until there is a vaccine, which is estimated by the earliest next year, or worse, 2022 or 2023. I'm losing my hope now. Although channel swimming has been resumed I will have great trouble training for it if the virus situation keeps going like this making any planning impossible.
For those 2020 channel swimmers, do you consider dropping out and giving up your slot because you have trouble training for it? and for those 2021 swimmers, how will you remedy the situation given the interruption happening now?
I manage the bookings for a pilot and we have had quite a few postponements, mainly because of difficulty with travel from overseas and quarantine time.....some because of inability to train. I shall squeeze everybody in in the next two or three years, providing things improve eventually. Thankfully, some of next year's swimmers have happily moved further ahead and there are some very small springs next year, too. We just roll with it and adapt as we need to. At least we're up and running this year, although standard relays are still a no no at the moment.