USMS allows boat resting on open water swims

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Comments

  • lakespray said:
    What about creating a seal of approval/assurance/certification for any open water race organization/event that the race, or a specific segment/division of that event will operate in the 100 year old plus spirit of no flotation devices, regular swimsuit, cap and googles, regardless of any other affiliation. I.E. The Marathon Swimming Federation (MSF) seal of approval?

    I can understand the attraction of such a "seal of approval" but expect there would be too many exceptions, such as personal swim buoys (whether required by race director or by external body), shark suits, 2 caps, and so on. Would MSF withhold its imprimatur in such cases?

  • Oldnslow said:
    I am honestly baffled by people's objections to this. Do you really think you are going to get beat in a race by someone who needs to hold onto a kayak? [snip] And the more the sport is open to people of all abilities, the more races there will be and the more opportunities there will be for open water swimming. And that is a good thing.

    I don't think it has to do with one's finishing position so much as with a bedrock assumption of the sport: the swimmer gets from point A to point B under her or his own steam.

    The "Assisted" category already exists for swimmers needing different kinds of support. People of all abilities already can and do enjoy the sport. The new rule, it seems to me, encourages insufficiently prepared swimmers to enter a much longer or more difficult race than they qualify for because they can always hold on to the kayak if they get tired. This increases the risk level to swimmer and kayaker.

    Dealing with exigencies that might result in a DNF, such as cramps or getting tired or not meeting an important time milestone or getting seasick, is something all OW swimmers face when they enter the water.

    In any event, it will be interesting to see how things play out over the next couple of years.

    flystormsevmo
  • timsroottimsroot Spring, TXCharter Member

    @Oldnslow - I do understand the rationale behind that type of assistance category for the purposes of growing the sport, but given some relatively recent tragedies in triathlon, I think it could set a dangerous precedent. K

    nowing that an easy bail out point is available tends to lead people to not be as respectful of the distance they are trying to swim. Given that a lot of paddlers supporting races tend to be inexperienced kayakers, if a panicked swimmer suddenly and unexpectedly reaches for the boat, it's very easy to imagine that you now have two distressed swimmers in the water requiring rescue. That is a much worse situation for a safety team to have to deal with.

    I'm all for growing the sport, but not at the sake of safety.

    rosemarymintIronMikecurlywendyv34gregocKarl_Kingeryflystorms
  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    Speaking of this, I just got invited to take a survey by USMS on open water events specifically. If you're a USMS member, check your inbox. Unsure if they managed to target OW USMS members specifically, or if they're surveying all USMS members.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • FlowSwimmersFlowSwimmers Polson, MontanaMember

    As a USMS Open Water Committee member, this is the second USMS survey related to open water that I have received in the last month.

    I'm happy to carry the MSF flag at our committee meetings if anyone is interested sharing their feedback.

    One of the interesting questions on this last survey was, "how happy are you with the USMS provided events." As far as I know, USMS does not "provide" any events but sanctions about 55 annually.

    IronMikelakespraygregoc
  • emkhowleyemkhowley Boston, MACharter Member

    I got this survey last night , too, and was intrigued. @FlowSwimmers can you comment on whether this survey was initiated by the USMS OWC volunteers or if it's coming from the National Office staff? I'm just curious as to its origins.

    IronMikeevmo

    Stop me if you've heard this one...
    A grasshopper walks into a bar...
    https://elainekhowley.com/

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member

    @FlowSwimmers said:
    As a USMS Open Water Committee member, this is the second USMS survey related to open water that I have received in the last month.

    Two? I only got the one last night.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • j9swimj9swim CharlestonSenior Member

    i've gotten 2 emails - i was very briefly on the committee...but swiftly realized that they were not interested in opening up our sport but rather trying to dumb it down.

    evmogregoc
  • MLambyMLamby Senior Member

    I’m not a member, but if you are interested in opinions from the general distance swimming public....I agree 100% with j9swim and others. This is not good for the sport. People who have no business entering races will do so if they know they can just hang on to a boat and still claim they “finished” the race. It’s not an issue of worrying about losing to somebody who does this...it’s an issue of diluting the integrity of the sport and the pride in truly finishing a swim 100% under your own power. It’s also a safety issue. When I did the New York City triathlon, they barely had enough support boats to fish all the people out who couldn’t even complete one mile. Imagine what it would be like at one of the more popular or difficult OWS events. I passed and beat a swimmer at Key West who got frustrated at the shallow water right at the end and stood up on the rocks, and therefore he had to DNF. If he could have just hung onto his boat, and then continued to finish ahead of me....that would just have been patently unfair. Why have rules at all then? I am having to learn to swim for multiple hours at a time without music so I can hopefully get a swim MSF documented. I’m not whining and asking that the rules be changed, I’m learning to do it the right and fair way. I get that people want to grow the sport and make it more inclusive, but I think if that’s done at the cost of safety and integrity, then it’s probably not a great idea.

    evmoslknightcurlyCopelj26
  • FlowSwimmersFlowSwimmers Polson, MontanaMember

    @emkhowley : The surveys are being developed and sent out by the USMS National Office. I believe they formed an "extended" committee to put the surveys together. I'm not exactly sure what the NO is up to, but they have some aggressive goals: 100+ USMS sanctioned events (55 in 2018) and double the number of open water splashes (13K to 25K) within five years. I hope they are planning to INCREASE the overall open water market and not just pillage events from other sanctioning bodies.

    @IronMike : The first survey, I believe, was sent to the open water committee and some other "established" stake-holders like USMS execs and LMSC leaders. The second survey, as far as I can tell, was to USMS registered swimmers.

    @MLamby : The "boat assist" was approved two years ago, so I'm pretty sure that's off the table unless someone brings it up again. I appreciate your feedback, in general, however. There was quite a discussion about the rule during the annual convention.

    Essentially, I feel there's an opportunity for both directions. Race directors wishing to follow the "boat assist" rule are able to use that aspect to attract more athletes, and those wish to stick to the more traditional route are able to do that. It's up the race director, and they can promote their events accordingly.

    IronMike
  • lakespraylakespray Senior Member
    edited January 2019

    @FlowSwimmers "As a USMS Open Water Committee member" Just sort of surprised & amused knowing your aversion to governing & sanctioning bodies ;) After many years of paying USMS dues and despite there constant emails trying to get me to renew, this will the second year in a row I'm not renewing. I no longer do pool competitions, my disdain for the new rule allowing swimmers to hang onto a boat without disqualification and the fact they've become irrelevant when it comes to open water swimming, its simply money down the drain.

    evmogregoccurlyIronMikeCopelj26Karl_Kingery
  • FlowSwimmersFlowSwimmers Polson, MontanaMember

    @lakespray I know, pretty funny that I would be involved with my #myrulesrule campaign! However, as Barack Obama said in his farewell address, "If you are disappointed with your elected officials, grab a clipboard, get some signatures, and run for office yourself."

    Event Directors should promote the fact that they stick to the traditional rules...or whatever rules they choose...#myrulesrule!

    lakespraythelittlemerwookie
  • MLambyMLamby Senior Member

    And there is where I see the problem. It’s apparently become about money. Screw the integrity of the sport. Get more people in the water who can put unearned stickers on the back of their minivan...so money can be made...the exact opposite of what attracted me to this sport. I came here because this seemed a last noble sporting endeavor. Disappointing.

  • MLambyMLamby Senior Member

    And for you to say...well yeah, I’m selling out this sport, but if you don’t like it vote me out, or run for office yourself is as shameful as when any person in a position of authority has said it previously. It’s so arrogant and dismissive. Why not actually listen to those who disagree with you and accept that their opinions may hav merit?

  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin

    I don't think @FlowSwimmers has said anything to deserve this tone... however I must admit that his recent campaigns on other social media platforms (alluded to by @lakespray ) have left me uncertain where he stands on these issues.

    @FlowSwimmers , can you explain your perspective in further detail, re: boat resting and related rules issues? It sounds like you agree with the current policy, where boat resting is allowed at the discretion of the race director.

    Any data on how many USMS open water events used tri rules (boat resting) vs traditional (unassisted) rules, since the passage of this policy?

  • MLambyMLamby Senior Member

    Sorry Evmo. I agree on my tone. Wouldn’t let me edit once posted though.... 😊

  • FlowSwimmersFlowSwimmers Polson, MontanaMember

    @evmo and @MLamby : I don't mind the tone. In my opinion, USMS has done many things wrong when it comes to open water, and if you participate on the open water committee or as a part of the governing body, you have to listen, as suggested.

    I voted against the "boat resting" rule at the 2017 USMS convention, but was pleased when they re-opened the discussion and added, "at the event director's discretion." I was not part of the open water committee at the time, so I had no input on the evolution of this rule.

    It still seems to be an opportunity for the traditionalists to market their events as such?

    As far as my personal perspective goes @evmo, I find it difficult to navigate the varying rules of the varying organizations. With my limited budget, I participate in the swims I enjoy and can afford.

    It would be interesting to know the impact of the boat resting vs. unassisted. The number of USMS sanctioned events and splashes has been flat for several years, so my guess is minimal. I'll ask that question of the National Office...and I expect that I won't get an answer.

    To go back to the intent of my post regarding the USMS survey, however, I would like to hear from people in this forum on issues they would like to see addressed at that level.

    evmothelittlemerwookiegregoc
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber

    Sorry, but why allowing boat resting is included in the rule of triathlons? I think it is a serious safety problem!

  • IronMikeIronMike Northern VirginiaCharter Member
    edited January 2019

    @FlowSwimmers my issues are: boat resting and not separating skins vs. wetsuit results. (Unsure if this last one is an issue with USMS-sanctioned races or not.)

    I've only rejoined USMS recently due to finding a masters team near my home. Otherwise, I wouldn't have joined.

    We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams

  • j9swimj9swim CharlestonSenior Member

    Im a member of USMS and probaby always will be as I like training with other swimmers. But as an organization I have so many issues with them as far as they're approach to inclusion, dumbing our sport to attract people not qualified, only careing about speed and not experience in the open water, no value add to OW events that i have seen, and if they weren't co-opting events i want to swim I wouldn't swim their events . Looks like a $$$ grab from my perspective. But i do love swim the kingdom week and im excited to hopefully finally participate in Swim the Suck, and maybe someday swim portland which are all usms events. I am interested to know why these long standing events are now under the usms umbrella - do they provide insurance, were the events not selling out witthout usms, are they worth the overhead of the organization. What exactly are they bringing to the party?

  • FlowSwimmersFlowSwimmers Polson, MontanaMember

    @miklcct : I cannot speak to the "boat resting" rule as it pertains to triathlon. The debate within USMS open water was related to safety. Many delegates at the USMS convention thought boat resting was safer, and nearly as many felt boat resting was hazardous. At the end of the day, they left it up to each event director to decide for their own events.

    @IronMike : I agree with you 100% and seek out the events that do not allow boat resting and also separate out the wetsuit vs. non-wetsuit participants. I also tend toward the events with five-year age brackets vs. categorizing everyone together. 10-years is okay, but as I near 60, those 50-year-old kids are just too fast for me!

    @j9swim : My biggest concern with USMS OW is the "no value add" and the co-opting of events. I am hopeful that USMS will improve and grow the market. I believe there's been a historical negotiation between the event hosts and the events you mention (Swim the Suck, Kingdom Week, and Portland). Certainly, the "national championship" designation comes into play.

  • MLambyMLamby Senior Member

    Just going back to the beginning of this read and reading through it. Does Roger Goodell work for USMS ???

  • lakespraylakespray Senior Member

    Nothing lights up the forum like USMS and hanging on boats, LOL. https://marathonswimmers.org/assets/docswims/2017/thomas_champlain/craig.mp4

    evmoMLambyFlowSwimmersCopelj26Karl_Kingery
  • miklcctmiklcct London, United KingdomMem​ber
    edited February 2019

    @FlowSwimmers said:
    @miklcct : I cannot speak to the "boat resting" rule as it pertains to triathlon. The debate within USMS open water was related to safety. Many delegates at the USMS convention thought boat resting was safer, and nearly as many felt boat resting was hazardous. At the end of the day, they left it up to each event director to decide for their own events.

    @IronMike : I agree with you 100% and seek out the events that do not allow boat resting and also separate out the wetsuit vs. non-wetsuit participants. I also tend toward the events with five-year age brackets vs. categorizing everyone together. 10-years is okay, but as I near 60, those 50-year-old kids are just too fast for me!

    @j9swim : My biggest concern with USMS OW is the "no value add" and the co-opting of events. I am hopeful that USMS will improve and grow the market. I believe there's been a historical negotiation between the event hosts and the events you mention (Swim the Suck, Kingdom Week, and Portland). Certainly, the "national championship" designation comes into play.

    There is a man called Fredric in my country who is in his upper 40s and still swimming as fast as the national team members in their youth, therefore age is not a problem. He participated in cold half as well this year, and got the 1st in wetsuit category. Therefore, I don't care if the event is age-separated or not.

    However, it is very important for me to have separate classes for wetsuit v.s. non-wetsuit, because I consider wetsuit as an assistance (comparable to climbing mountains using oxygen tanks). Therefore, if I have a choice I will avoid races where people with wetsuit and without are ranked together, especially when the water temperature is >= 19°C.

    FlowSwimmerslakesprayflystormsgregocwendyv34MLamby
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