Also I have to determine if it is worthwhile for me to continue to put my time (or even money) to train for it. For example if it will take me 25 years of hard work to have the slightest chance to get into the 10 km or 25 km national team by the age of 50, then I will probably give up - however if it is viable to make it in 5 to 10 years while retaining enough training in my other sport which I'm already in the national team, I will put my effort and try to do it. (I want to pick 2 unrelated sports for my life to get good at both at the same time)
I don't think this is a reasonable goal. I don't know how competitive your national team is, but most elite swimmers have been swimming since they were very young. That isn't to say that a few people don't pick up swimming a bit later and excel at it, but that's fairly unusual. Swimming is about 85% technique, which is the ability to feel and work with the water efficiently. This is developed over years of practice, with attention to the feedback that water gives. Some folks are born with a higher natural affinity for feeling the water and with years of hard work, those people become the elite swimmers you idolize. Like others here have repeatedly said, you need to invest in quality coaching if you want to see any significant improvement. I'd also recommend reevaluating your goals, realizing that there are no shortcuts and trying to focus on enjoying swimming, rather than your current frustrating and unrealistic approach.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
How do I find a coach who will fit me? I want to find a coach who teaches me technique for me to increase the speed which is sustainable for long distance (e.g. an English Channel swim) without relying a large amount of aerobic fitness, which my current squad coach does not believe so (she thinks that glide is a dirty world and just want me to increase my stroke rate which leads me to overheating and burning out).
Another coach I know who has proven record in training marathon swimmers unfortunately runs his squad in a member-only facility in a place which is extremely inconvenient for me to get to (an hour from work or two hours from home in peak hour traffic using the most direct transport route) and I'm not sure about his style.
I don't know what your other sport is that you are on the national team. But my question is, how long did it take you to be good at your other sport so you could make the national team? How much time and effort did you put into it to be competitive? How did you find the coaching that worked for you on your national team? It seems to me that if you are good enough to be a national team member in your other sport, you would probably be able to apply what you learned in that sport to developing your skills in this sport. But what do I know?
@curly said:
I don't know what your other sport is that you are on the national team. But my question is, how long did it take you to be good at your other sport so you could make the national team? How much time and effort did you put into it to be competitive? How did you find the coaching that worked for you on your national team? It seems to me that if you are good enough to be a national team member in your other sport, you would probably be able to apply what you learned in that sport to developing your skills in this sport. But what do I know?
It took me 5 years since starting to do that sport, and 3 years in the particular discipline before I qualified. However the main skill needed in that sport is map reading, which is not related to swimming at all.
I didn't have a coach in that discipline as it is still in early stage of development here.
Another sport I did was competitive programming. It took me 3 years to get to the national team for high school competition, but I have never qualified for the world championship in collegiate programming contest. It maybe because I hated some of the skills needed (i.e. algorithms) in that level so I was not willing to put effort in it, but at high school level the importance of that was not that high.
Some coaches will work with you by video. You can also help yourself a bit by having a friend take some video of you in the pool, then compare it to video of efficient distance swimmers. You can easily find videos of world class 1500m swimmers, look at several, because everyone has their own form. Look for the common elements. Many of them will turn over faster than what will work for you, but remember they are only swimming for ~15 minutes and you are training to swim for ~15 hours.
It might be worth it to travel to work with a marathon coach once or twice a month or attend a multi-day clinic. When I coach adults, I usually work with them once or twice, then have them practice the skills we worked on until they feel like they need more help.
It sounds like the coach you are working with is used to coaching pool sprinters. While there are some marathon swimmers who can sustain a high turnover, I believe it's more efficient for most swimmers to use a lower stroke rate and glide more. You described what happens when you raise your stroke rate as unsustainable, so you've kind of answered your own question. I think I saw that you'd tried TI in the past; those drills are effective for keeping your balance, staying streamlined and engaging your core. Perfecting those skills will definitely help you swim more efficiently.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
It sounds like the coach you are working with is used to coaching pool sprinters. While there are some marathon swimmers who can sustain a high turnover, I believe it's more efficient for most swimmers to use a lower stroke rate and glide more. You described what happens when you raise your stroke rate as unsustainable, so you've kind of answered your own question. I think I saw that you'd tried TI in the past; those drills are effective for keeping your balance, staying streamlined and engaging your core. Perfecting those skills will definitely help you swim more efficiently.
It is a triathlon club and most people in the club are triathletes (which I also do aquathons as well). In general is the training method the same for marathon swimming or for Ironman?
I have been following this because I need entertainment, but I am seeing really good coaches chime in with no effect and I guess I must write. One. More. Time.
Michael. You can not do this on your own terms. Part of being an elite athlete is pivoting- or reacting- to stressors. These stressors can be external, like weather, climate, water temperature, or tides (or coronavirus). They can be internal like confidence, maturity, self-awareness, bravery and heart for the struggle. I live where I live, with the climate, the family, the post-brain injury motion sickness, the financial circumstances, the resources, the clinical depression, and everything else I have. I can turn those things into excuses for why I can not do things (I will not do the Oceans 7 due to a few of those issues) or I can adapt and move forward with what I can do GIVEN MY CIRCUMSTANCES. Living where I live, with all the aforementioned conditions, if I want to become, say, a Himalayan mountain climber (at the same level at which I swim), it COULD happen but not without a lot of sacrifice and modification. I can not simulate those conditions living in new England USA but if it was my absolute dream, I would try make it happen.
This is part of the advice I gave you in March 2019 based on a video of your stroke at the time:
"your stroke looks pretty strong. There are some inefficient parts to it that you can easily correct...but the main thing is that your head needs to stay STILL. Every time your head picks up your whole body falls down in the water or spreads out (your legs get wide like a snowplow, for example) so that is the adjustment with the biggest impact that you can make."
Your response was that you were sighting a lot that day and that your neck was affected by sighting a lot the day before and that your coach had told you about the "leg problem" and you were "concentrating hard to avoid it."
@curly said:
I don't know what your other sport is that you are on the national team. But my question is, how long did it take you to be good at your other sport so you could make the national team? How much time and effort did you put into it to be competitive? How did you find the coaching that worked for you on your national team? It seems to me that if you are good enough to be a national team member in your other sport, you would probably be able to apply what you learned in that sport to developing your skills in this sport. But what do I know?
It took me 5 years since starting to do that sport, and 3 years in the particular discipline before I qualified. However the main skill needed in that sport is map reading, which is not related to swimming at all.
I didn't have a coach in that discipline as it is still in early stage of development here.
Another sport I did was competitive programming. It took me 3 years to get to the national team for high school competition, but I have never qualified for the world championship in collegiate programming contest. It maybe because I hated some of the skills needed (i.e. algorithms) in that level so I was not willing to put effort in it, but at high school level the importance of that was not that high.
OK, so it seems that some of your skills that you use in your pursuits that you are good at are reading, logic and comprehension. These are skills that you have developed since you were probably 5 or 6 years old. Every day you add a little more to what you already are good at. You didn't suddenly learn how to do this stuff.
Same with swimming. You are expecting instant results and are frustrated when you don't get it. 1 or 2 years of swimming is beginner level. You are actually getting some pretty good results for a complete neophyte, but realize that you will need a ton more time to get to the level you would like to be at.
High school swim teams take a bunch of age group swimmers and train them for 3 or 4 years, depending on the school system. At the end of those 4 years, there are swimmers who make state finals. Some of those kids go on to national level. Most don't. And that's after swimming competitively for possibly 10 or 12 years. Then you have college, then you have the Olympics.
Training for <5K swims is not the same as training for a channel crossing. For triathlon training (I used to be at USAT coach as well), I'd suggest swimming intervals, breaking your race distance into chunks and practice changing speed/effort, as well as some technique. Swimming is a small part of an Ironman, training time is better spent on cycling and running endurance. For marathon swimming, you need to be efficient and figure out how to hold your form after 5, 10 or 15 hours. If you can't hold on to decent technique when you're tired, you situation will deteriorate, the tide will change, the wind will pick up and the sun might even go down. The hardest part is usually the last few hours, proportionately. For a 4 hour swim, I plan to pick up speed for the last 90 minutes. A swim over 5 hours, I plan on giving it more effort in the last 2 hours. A common set I might use: 5x2000, each one faster than the last, then 4x500 (faster pace) and 6x150 as hard as I can go. I focus on my form, especially as I get tired. Being acclimated to the water conditions and being certain of your nutritional plan is equally as important, because those things can completely derail your swim.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
Am I so bad that I should really stop all the squad training and only work on my technique in the meantime?
Short answer is yes, stop screwing around and get some honest coaching on your stroke. I won't go into everything because I don't have the time. But look at your right arm for starters. It is not your friend. Your catch is not getting any power and the end of the stroke looks as though you have a bit of a hitch that then resolves to a ineffectual push at the water. Most of the stroke of your right arm is getting maybe 50% of an actual catch and pull. You are sort of karate chopping your hand through the water. That is not a pull.
You are obviously fit and probably strong, but your arms are just flailing away at the water. You will never be fast or good at swimming until you get your stroke to actually move you through the water with power and efficiency. Left arm is not as bad as right but I'm being kind right now. I'm not going to discuss how little your kick helps your arms. No leverage, no balance, just moving your feet. You've got work to do and conditioning isn't the problem here. So squad training is probably only giving you something to be frustrated about, but it isn't helping your core issue, which is technique. But you might have heard this all before...
Am I so bad that I should really stop all the squad training and only work on my technique in the meantime?
Short answer is yes, stop screwing around and get some honest coaching on your stroke. I won't go into everything because I don't have the time. But look at your right arm for starters. It is not your friend. Your catch is not getting any power and the end of the stroke looks as though you have a bit of a hitch that then resolves to a ineffectual push at the water. Most of the stroke of your right arm is getting maybe 50% of an actual catch and pull. You are sort of karate chopping your hand through the water. That is not a pull.
You are obviously fit and probably strong, but your arms are just flailing away at the water. You will never be fast or good at swimming until you get your stroke to actually move you through the water with power and efficiency. Left arm is not as bad as right but I'm being kind right now. I'm not going to discuss how little your kick helps your arms. No leverage, no balance, just moving your feet. You've got work to do and conditioning isn't the problem here. So squad training is probably only giving you something to be frustrated about, but it isn't helping your core issue, which is technique. But you might have heard this all before...
OK - another 2 years of training down the drain now. It took me 4 years to get to the standard to get to the squad because I didn't know how I could find coaching, and just brute-forced my way to the squad standard, and now another 2 years of training in the squad without much improvement.
I joined the particular squad because it is run by the sports centre of the university I'm in. 3 months into the squad I did a video analysis, then took some lessons afterwards. No speed improvement afterwards. I started to doubt if the squad coach is good for me, but the fact that nearly all marathon swimmers in the city train in the squad that I'm in made me continue for another season.
The reason of my doubt is that the squad coach which uses swim smooth continues to want me to increase my stroke rate despite I'm not getting much out of my stroke. She just thinks by increase my stroke rate my dead spot can be eliminated and get a better form, and she thinks it's better to use higher stroke rate in open water.
I'm extremely unhappy now knowing that all the things I did in the past 2 years were not useful for me, and I have to start everything again as a total beginner in another club which I don't have friends there.
abbygirlroseLos Angeles and Palo Alto, CASenior Member
Michael, you spent 2 years gaining confidence and experience with pool and open water swimming. Even if you did not gain speed or technique, 2 years spent swimming cannot be a total waste. Swimming technique is not built in a day or even in a year. I have been swimming for 12 years (half my life) and there are still elements of my technique that I think about and work to improve everyday that I am in the water.
Try to find one thing to get out of every training session, even if it is just a little thing. For example: today I swam with a group of people who are much slower than me, so I was not going to get a huge speed benefit from that workout, but I had a lot of fun, met new people, and got to lead a group while I am usually playing catch up. Those are 3 positive take aways from my swim this morning. Rather than focusing on how your 2 years were a "waste," try to focus on the small things you have gotten out of it.
For a lot of us 2020 will be/has been "a waste" by your definition, but it would just be plain depressing to focus on all the missed racing opportunities rather than the unique swimming experiences and growth opportunities provided my having to grapple with change. I recognize that you care immensely about your swimming and I respectfully think your attitude is the number one thing standing in your way.
@miklcct - @abbygirlrose and I are training partners. She is 5'4" on a good day and I'm 6'4'' on a short day - we are the exact same pace and have completely different stroke techniques and stroke rates. We're both relatively quick for marathon swimmers but swim very differently. I take half the amount of strokes as she does because I use my size effectively and she is able to stick with me (and I to her) because she has an excellent cadence and catch. Find what your strengths are and what works for you and stick to it. Good luck!
If you really want to fix your stroke, a great coach out of the UK is Adam Walker, give him a call - he's a great guy and is extremely invested in his swimmers.
@miklcct In addition to what others said, you need to work on your body position. You want your hips near the surface and your legs tucked in behind them. Think about what your frontal surface area looks like and try to reduce the size of it, so you are pushing less water. Visualize swimming in a pipe, TI drills (X-Y-I drill, remember to keep your hips tight, squeeze your glutes) will help you with that by focusing on balancing forward. Imagine your body is a see-saw, but the fulcrum isn't in the middle, (it's at your chest), so you have to push harder on the short end of the board.
Another way to get your balance forward is to let your stroke catch up a bit more. When your hand enters the water, instead of pulling down immediately, extend your arm forward while leaning on your arm pit. This will lengthen your stroke and you should coast forward, (TI side kicking drill helps with that position). If it helps you to visualize this, try to keep your arm out in front of your body until your recovering hand passes your ear. Some people need to tap their ear with their thumb to feel the timing.
If you are able to get access to the pool during a quiet lap swim, that's the best time to focus on technique. Work on one thing at a time and figure out integrating it into your stroke. Go back and forth between drill and stroke. Be patient, changing your stroke takes time.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
As the total immersion coach I've approach can't promise me a set date for resuming the lessons, I have decided to find another coach to have some 1-1 lessons first which I will start next Tuesday. He's a national triathlon team member, therefore I believe he can teach me technique which will be useful for long distance open water swimming.
Also, I have taken some videos today as a record. Please advise.
@miklcct - videos filmed in open water with a stationary camera aren't ideal. If possible, here's what I recommend for filming your stroke so a remote coach can offer useful feedback:
Buy a GoPro and a compatible telescoping pole.
Go to a pool with a friend, find a lane next to the wall.
Swim a few laps while your friend walks back and forth on the deck, filming you with the GoPro and pole.
@evmo said: @miklcct - videos filmed in open water with a stationary camera aren't ideal. If possible, here's what I recommend for filming your stroke so a remote coach can offer useful feedback:
The pools I use do not allow filming. That's my problem I've stated over these 2 years.
@miklcct yeah, I think you need a good stroke coach. All the feedback you’ve gotten on this feed is great though!!
The emphasis in triathlon swimming has really moved to a fast stroke rate. I’m not entirely sure why. Before covid, I sometimes swam in the pool with a couple friends who consistently are among the top 10 professional Ironman triathletes in the world (I mention because credentials are important to you). I’m a faster swimmer than both of them and I take 16-17 strokes/25 meters, whereas they take around 23-25 strokes/25 meters. Nevertheless, they are obviously doing great and have both improved their swimming substantially by working with coaches and listening very carefully to the feedback they get. I personally prefer a more efficient, slower stroke rate, especially for long swims, but I can see how a faster stroke rate works for some people.
The more relevant thing to think about is getting your body into a balanced position (as @wendyv34 mentioned). Even when I was swimming in college, we would spend part of practice just floating, face down for a time. “Float like a boat”, my coach would say. Once you get your body to float as well as a kayak, a little power goes a long way!!
Since no one else has mentioned it, I also recommend that after you arm enters the water, point your finger tips down very soon and keep your elbow high. They call this “the catch” and it should feel like your arm is rolling over a barrel.
If you (or anyone else reading) want some good demos of stroke drills to practice these things, check out Chloe Sutton on YouTube. Her videos are my favorite. Well, David Marsh has done good ones also.
Finally, oh my gosh, I watched those recent videos and that looks like an awesome place to swim!!
@LakeBagger said: @miklcct yeah, I think you need a good stroke coach. All the feedback you’ve gotten on this feed is great though!!
The emphasis in triathlon swimming has really moved to a fast stroke rate. I’m not entirely sure why. Before covid, I sometimes swam in the pool with a couple friends who consistently are among the top 10 professional Ironman triathletes in the world (I mention because credentials are important to you). I’m a faster swimmer than both of them and I take 16-17 strokes/25 meters, whereas they take around 23-25 strokes/25 meters. Nevertheless, they are obviously doing great and have both improved their swimming substantially by working with coaches and listening very carefully to the feedback they get. I personally prefer a more efficient, slower stroke rate, especially for long swims, but I can see how a faster stroke rate works for some people.
The bold part of the statement is where I am now - if I try hard to extend my arm, get my body stiff, and glide much longer than usual, I can bring by stroke count to 16 - 18 but my body is so much tired only after 1 single length which I can't sustain.
And the italic part is what I want to learn, but my triathlon squad coach doesn't want me to do so. She thinks that if I spin my arm faster my form is better, one of the reason is because my legs won't drop so much between strokes, another reason is that less glide = less deceleration / acceleration which is more efficient, and it works better in open water, but the problem is that I can't sustain that for the distance I want to do! She then thinks it is a fitness issue. I kept training in the squad hoping that would work for a year, but it turned out not. I really can't sustain that "better form" from a higher stroke rate.
I just showed a video of Neil and she thinks I shouldn't learn his style as I'm not swimming 100 km. She thinks a good role model will be those who are racing 10 km in FINA races.
Finally, oh my gosh, I watched those recent videos and that looks like an awesome place to swim!!
That's one of the best diving spots in Hong Kong and I have a friend who live nearby. Therefore he now guides us to swim there every weekend. He has started open water swimming this year and plan to do some 10 km soon.
If you find yourself in Hong Kong after the border reopens and I'm still here by then, I will introduce you to my group there.
@miklcct said:
The public pools in Hong Kong do not allow filming. The guards actively intervene in it.
The only non-public pools I have access are the ones in my university. They don't allow filming as well which I asked and confirmed.
Can swim coaches who are employed by pools in Hong Kong film their students during a lesson?
This is a grey area - theoretically no but tolerated if it is not done so "publicly".
The "professional" video analysis services are all done in private pools which need to get "special permission". I know 3 coaches (Fenella Ng, Dominic Tsui, Henry Wright) who offer this kind of service which I did once early 2019 with Fenella Ng because I was training in her squad as well. I've lost confidence in her already due to all the reasons I have stated in previous replies. However Simon (who did both the English Channel and round HK swim) says she is the best coach in Hong Kong he's encountered.
I've contacted Dominic Tsui and tried out his squad, but his focus is in pool swimming so I'm not continuing.
The remaining one is Henry Wright. I know a friend who has got good improvement after training with him (he has a master squad and also a triathlon / open water squad) but unfortunately the location (SCAA in So Kon Po) is too hard to reach in peak hour traffic.
Not to derail thread, but I'm curious why you aren't allowed to film a swimmer. That seems like a really unusual law. I know different places have different laws, so I would like to know the thinking behind this one. In contrast, I've actually had lifeguards in my pool take some video clips of me so I could work out a stroke problem. The only reason I can think of is that you are videoing people in various states of undress and in a modest society, this might seem a little indecent. Same reason we don't allow cell phone use in a locker room.
Second point regarding ways to film considering that you can't do it in a pool. I wonder if it's possible to rig a go pro camera on a kayak. Then the kayak could pace along with the swimmer and get some good shots that way. It would take a little practice to figure out the best way, but I bet it could be done.
Third point. There is an improvement in your stroke from the older videos to the newer videos, so your efforts have not been in vain. I still think you need good coaching. I'm not sure a triathlon coach is ideal because the goals and aims of a triathlete swimmer and a marathon swimmer are different. You need a swim coach, not a multidisciplinary sport coach. It's the difference between a music teacher and a guitar teacher.
@curly in the UK, filming restrictions are usually about child protection, but filming is also potentially a threat to women’s safety, particularly when things end up online.
@miklcct - first, I think it's great that you're trying to be more proactive about improving your stroke by seeking feedback and coaching. Having said that, after 2 years of swimming, you should be able to watch those videos of yourself and identify at least a few things in your stroke that could be improved upon. There's no one "right" way of swimming, but there are some things that any coach/technique/philosophy will say are wrong. So what's one specific thing (not that you should be more efficient or have a more TI-like stroke, or should swim more like whomever, etc.) you think you should work on, and why? And what will you do before your 1 on 1 coaching to work on it? All the coaching and advice in the world won't help if you don't think things are actually problems and aren't willing to work on them.
@miklcct that makes sense, what your current coach is saying. It might be too big of a jump to go from 23-25 to 16-17. Here’s a little set I like to do during lap swim to work on my “distance per stroke”:
Take 20-30 sec rest (or until you feel yourself catch your breath) do it again. Just like you, I get more tired (and also get faster) as my stroke count gets lower. I can’t sustain the 16s for all that long, so it’s good technique practice along with fitness training.
You could start at 25 strokes/25, then get one fewer each 100 instead of starting with 18. But the first 100 should feel not too hard.
I visited Hong Kong in 2004 and I truly enjoyed it. I wasn’t into open water swimming at that time, so would love to swim there if I ever get to go back. What a beautiful place—it was different than here and therefore felt very unique and special to me.
@mke84 said: @miklcct - first, I think it's great that you're trying to be more proactive about improving your stroke by seeking feedback and coaching. Having said that, after 2 years of swimming, you should be able to watch those videos of yourself and identify at least a few things in your stroke that could be improved upon. There's no one "right" way of swimming, but there are some things that any coach/technique/philosophy will say are wrong. So what's one specific thing (not that you should be more efficient or have a more TI-like stroke, or should swim more like whomever, etc.) you think you should work on, and why? And what will you do before your 1 on 1 coaching to work on it? All the coaching and advice in the world won't help if you don't think things are actually problems and aren't willing to work on them.
I actually don't know, but what my coach has said in these 2 years include:
I turn my head too much to breathe - the ideal is one goggle out / one goggle in. I tried to work on it but I suck a lot of water in when breathing, especially in rough water. I usually swim in rough water, the newest video is relatively calm (BF 1 only).
My legs are so low that it causes a lot of drag. I press down a lot in my front of the stroke causing imbalance. I should keep my shoulder near the chins instead. I'm also working on it but it makes my shoulder tired. I think this video is better than the previous ones as now my legs are much nearer to the surface but my front of the stroke is still not good.
I had a cross-over in my hand entry causing my legs wide open like a scissor. I think this problem no longer appears in the newest video.
@curly said:
I'm not sure a triathlon coach is ideal because the goals and aims of a triathlete swimmer and a marathon swimmer are different. You need a swim coach, not a multidisciplinary sport coach. It's the difference between a music teacher and a guitar teacher.
I think for my case my goals and aims are more similar to a "triathlete swimmer" because:
I am only interested in racing open water. I am not interested in doing anything but freestyle. Triathletes are the same.
Triathletes conserve energy in the swim in order to get to the transition to get their best bike and run. I also need to conserve energy in marathon swimming.
I also do aquathons in addition to marathon swimming as well. I also train for running (but currently suspended because it is too hot) and I also want to do full triathlons or run marathons in the coming year.
I don't want a swim coach who focuses on pool / master swimming to teach me skills which are only useful for short distance / pool swimming but not sustainable for triathlon distances.
@miklcct said:
I don't want a swim coach who focuses on pool / master swimming to teach me skills which are only useful for short distance / pool swimming but not sustainable for triathlon distances.> @mke84 said:
There are no "pool skills" and "open water skills". You learn your technique, period, which should be the same for everyone and regardless of the coach. And in the meantime you adapt your fitness/cardio to your goals (i.e. distance you want swim); this is where differences between coaches may arise, including stroke rate and kicking rate, gliding, etc.
But you can't get faster without improving your technique, and this you have to do with drills (usually in the pool, but not necessarily). The longer you want to swim, the more important is technique (you are more efficient, therefore you need less effort to keep a specific speed, or with the same effort you swim faster).
Then in open water you adapt your technique to conditions: e.g. a lake or a beach early in the morning are like a pool; but in choppy seas, you try to lift your arms upper than in the pool, and usually you have to roll further or with the head slightly backwards to prevent sucking water when breathing; in front waves or following seas you have to adapt your stroke and breathing rate to the waves; for long distances you try to reduce your kicking; etc. This is where you can accept advice from coaches and fellow swimmers, but you have to test, learn and adapt for yourself: what works for me might not work for you.
So (1) Technique and (2) Adaptation to conditions in OW. With both you then build (3) Confidence, which is quite important (as it is to know when you shouldn't swim: due to sea conditions, weather conditions (either too cold or too hot), your conditions...). With this and (4) Willpower you are (almost) unstoppable. This doesn't mean you'll be fast, or that you'll never DNF, but more important: you'll be able to set realistic goals and then work for them. Step by step.
Note that for (3) and (4), and partly for (2), you don't need any coach.
Michael, I've been busting a gut not to say this...but why are you even planning an EC swim? What are you doing it for if there are so many obstacles you're complaining about? If you really want this, go out of your way to find solutions.I've never read so much negativity or so many excuses to not train, not to swim with a squad, not to book a session in an endless pool for stroke analysis, etc. etc. I really don't mean to be rude, but you do the same in the distance swimming groups on Facebook. You massively overthink everything. You don't need to match an Olympian. You don't need to be perfect or elite. Not one of us has it perfect. If you really want this, just go for it and look for opportunities. Yes, it's hot, but I've read replies on FB from swimmer friends who have the same training conditions and simply adapt. They have told you how to cope. Yet you're still asking the same questions. Pool technique will do you so much good. Many of us started in the pool and literally learned with the waves and time in the sea/lake. You can't plan it all in advance. Relax a little. You don't sound like you even enjoy it and that's so sad. It does make me wonder what your actual motivation is. Are you doing this because you really want to swim long distances? I'd love to know.
Here's a suggestion from an old, old swimming teacher: Get a kick-board and learn to have a solid flutter kick! Hold the kick-board at the middle of both sides, thumbs on top, fingers under...stretch the board out in front, with your chin in the water (not face down). Go to a 25 or 50 yard/meter pool and do at least 10 reps. by 50 yards with a minute rest between each 50. I think this drill will help develop your kick...make it more efficient and as you become skillful in doing the flutter kick, your body position will be more balanced and stronger. Later, once you establish all of this, I'd want to develop your arm technique. I'd like to see you narrow the width of your kick, keep up with your toes pointed back (You need to learn to do this rhythmically & dynamically). Try to keep the kick just under the surface of the water. Meanwhile, I wouldn't worry too much about developing/improving the rest of the stroke...but make sure you do this drill until you can move your body straight down a lane with rhythm, balance and efficiency. All the best (feel free to disregard everything I've suggested!!!).
@KatieBun said:
You can't plan it all in advance. Relax a little. You don't sound like you even enjoy it and that's so sad. It does make me wonder what your actual motivation is. Are you doing this because you really want to swim long distances? I'd love to know.
I need to plan everything in advance otherwise I don't have confidence. When I booked the slot early February this year no one anticipated COVID would become a pandemic. I knew that if I wanted to do it in 2021 I couldn't wait anymore. Why I want to do it in 2021 is because I want to do a working holiday to experience overseas living which the legal age limit is 30. I can't work out a way which I can get a long stay visa in a foreign country while retaining my freedom of work.
(However this may change due to recent madness in Hong Kong no one anticipated a few months earlier. The UK may offer a special kind of visa to BNO holders which allows us to work freely. If it realises I will regret my decision to book a 2021 slot.)
I have worked out a plan how I should build up my technique, speed and endurance from February this year to August next year, but then we all know what happened.
I used to enjoy swimming and really wanted to swim long distances but no longer now, for one single reason because the weather is too hot.
@rlm said:
Here's a suggestion from an old, old swimming teacher: Get a kick-board and learn to have a solid flutter kick!
I literally don't know how to do a flutter kick. The coach in the group training made us to do this drill yesterday night. No matter how I moved / rotated my legs / hips I didn't move at all. I'll get my coach to teach me this in my coming 1-1.
In the past I didn't know how to even kick properly at all. Then I learnt the 2-beat kick from a TI coach.
@wendyv34 said:
Some coaches will work with you by video. You can also help yourself a bit by having a friend take some video of you in the pool, then compare it to video of efficient distance swimmers. You can easily find videos of world class 1500m swimmers, look at several, because everyone has their own form. Look for the common elements. Many of them will turn over faster than what will work for you, but remember they are only swimming for ~15 minutes and you are training to swim for ~15 hours.
It might be worth it to travel to work with a marathon coach once or twice a month or attend a multi-day clinic. When I coach adults, I usually work with them once or twice, then have them practice the skills we worked on until they feel like they need more help.
It sounds like the coach you are working with is used to coaching pool sprinters. While there are some marathon swimmers who can sustain a high turnover, I believe it's more efficient for most swimmers to use a lower stroke rate and glide more. You described what happens when you raise your stroke rate as unsustainable, so you've kind of answered your own question. I think I saw that you'd tried TI in the past; those drills are effective for keeping your balance, staying streamlined and engaging your core. Perfecting those skills will definitely help you swim more efficiently.
This is excellent advise. That said, there's indeed a tremendous amount of variability in the strokes of elite 1500 meter swimmers, as well as 10K swimmers and beyond. Different strokes seem to work for different folks. As it applies to extremely fast, elite EC swimmers, Trent Grimsey, Penny Dean, & Philip Rush had high turnover strokes, whereas Petar Stoychev & Yuri Kudinov did not. By the same token, some have big kicks, and others are borderline leg draggers.
One thing I've noticed at my age (56) is that I'm simply not as physically strong as I was 7-8 years ago. Thus, I've converted to a high turnover stroke with a relatively shallow pull. In my late 40s, DPS was probably excellent for someone of my height (slightly over 6') at 33-34 strokes per 50 meters. Now, I'm at about 40-42, and it's working out fine. One positive factor I didn't account for in the change is that the higher turnover stroke seems to elevate my body position.
@smith said:
One thing I've noticed at my age (56) is that I'm simply not as physically strong as I was 7-8 years ago. Thus, I've converted to a high turnover stroke with a relatively shallow pull. In my late 40s, DPS was probably excellent for someone of my height (slightly over 6') at 33-34 strokes per 50 meters. Now, I'm at about 40-42, and it's working out fine. One positive factor I didn't account for in the change is that the higher turnover stroke seems to elevate my body position.
I seem not to know other way to swim than the one I have.
I have tried to increase the stroke rate, but I felt I had to willingly sacrifice the pull.
Also breathing at 2 strokes and increasing the stroke rate seems to bring too much noise , to short breathing time, too often (too much air )
I also don't imagine increasing the rate and going at 3 strokes breathing - maybe without pulling, otherwise increasing the arms stroke rate, determines the elevation as well and makes me kick a bit faster - as my mind somehow coordinates the leg movements with the arms movement and I get more tired than my "normal" way.
Really I don't see how others can do it, to efficiently addapt their strokes and I tried to bring variety - to see what fits me. I start considering that those that increase the rate do it, so they keep the pace, while their arms arms are tired (like swimming in the pool and "racing" with others).
Also, because I don't want to sacrifice the pull and I see myself doing a decent pull, all my pulls bring fatigue to my arms and sometimes I feel pain in the shoulders, during and after training, although I try to use my back muscles in the rotation (breathing on the right side, when pulling my right arm) and these days I don't seem to detension my upper body - not even after a 1 day rest between trainings.
@BogdanZ said:
I seem not to know other way to swim than the one I have.
I have tried to increase the stroke rate, but I felt I had to willingly sacrifice the pull.
Same here.. If I increase stroke rate I have to pull harder in order to have a faster turnover otherwise I just end up fighting the water.. So for me increase stroke rate means go faster and get tired faster. I made an experiment using a tempo trainer and fixing the stroke rate to a value that I considered to be a bit high but sustainable to me. I put 62 SPM and start swimming for 6Km no stop... The result was a half disaster, I started strong but fatigue was building up and while trying to keep up with the 62 SPM my pull got weaker and my stroke length decreased.. I ended up slowing down a lot every km...
I should try the same with maybe 58 SPM and see if I find a sweet spot rate that I can sustain for long time without loosing much speed. Once I will find this value I'll try to increase it a bit and keep it for the same time.. This will ultimately translate in a speed increase... But all these experiments are better done in the pool in my opinion as in open water, external factors (wind, waves, cold etc) will make it difficult and unnatural to sustain a fixed rate...
... But all these experiments are better done in the pool in my opinion as in open water, external factors (wind, waves, cold etc) will make it difficult and unnatural to sustain a fixed rate...
And in an olympic one, because turning can also affect the conclusion.
My Garmin says I am at 52 strokes per minute in lake/ow.
10k pool - around 42 strokes per minute.
And I was affraid is due to an untrained heart - i can't keep a bigger number.
I took my first lesson with Abraham (a national triathlete) on Tuesday. The first thing he made me to do after seeing me is to tell me to kick. Then he made me to increase my cadence and keep my hips flat. He explained to me that by kicking more, my legs can bring my arms cadence up, and keeping my hips flat can bring more power to the stroke rather than slipping through the water when my hips are rotated as well. All these are directly contrary to TI. I showed doubt about the method but he proved to me using a stopwatch that I got faster by timing my 100 then 50 by the end of the lesson, which I both got 3 seconds faster than my previous best.
I told him my goal is to make my 10 km faster and he thought I need to make my 100 - 200 - 400 m faster first.
I returned to the pool today and practised on my own, and I found out that I couldn't even sustain what he taught for 200 m. The stroke count for my initial 50 was about 53 and for my final 50 was about 64. (For comparison, in the lesson when I did a single 50, the stroke count was about 47). The initial 100 m was 1'36" and it ended up at 3'25".
@BogdanZ said:
I seem not to know other way to swim than the one I have.
I have tried to increase the stroke rate, but I felt I had to willingly sacrifice the pull.
Same here.. If I increase stroke rate I have to pull harder in order to have a faster turnover otherwise I just end up fighting the water.. So for me increase stroke rate means go faster and get tired faster. I made an experiment using a tempo trainer and fixing the stroke rate to a value that I considered to be a bit high but sustainable to me. I put 62 SPM and start swimming for 6Km no stop... The result was a half disaster, I started strong but fatigue was building up and while trying to keep up with the 62 SPM my pull got weaker and my stroke length decreased.. I ended up slowing down a lot every km...
Yes this is also what I tried in the past, if I force myself at a stroke rate which I can't sustain, my pull got weaker and weaker and my stroke length decreases a lot, slowing down every km. My sustainable stroke rate mainly depends on the water temperature. (I suspect my sustainable stroke rate is about 60 at 27°C, 56 at 30°C, and may be up to 64 at 16°C).
It sounds like your coach had some really good input. When you followed it, your stroke rate and time improved. So now you're upset because you can't sustain something you just learned how to do? Honestly, I sometimes wonder how you are able to cope with the world. Give yourself a break. Practice what you learned from this coach and amaze yourself in a few months. His tips were very observant and you had obvious improvement. So get out there, practice your new skills and build yourself into a good swimmer.
This thread is amazing. I don't know why I keep jumping into it, but it's not like I have a whole lot going on these days.
@miklcct that’s awesome that the coach’s advice made you get faster right away. Keep practicing, your body will adapt and you’ll be able to sustain it for longer. That’s the essence of training—you can do this!
I go high stroke rate but put no pressure on the shoulders by doing so...although the biggest swim I have done is 21km so not sure if how it will hold up after that.
Also I don't kick just let the legs float behind me
@abe said:
I go high stroke rate but put no pressure on the shoulders by doing so...
Out of curiosity.. what you consider high stroke rate? Would you say you have shoulder driven style? I understood you are quite fast so i am interested to know the SPM you can keep for 10k or more...
I like rhythm in the pool and do lots of 10km pool swims where just get in and don't think - hold 1.30 per 100m for 10km and is my comfortable pace, although cant go much quicker if go harder (they joy of not being able to sprint)
Stroke rate is quicker than most people I swim with but need to actually count it for accurate numbers as never really found important. I am as you described it a shoulder driven style and like previous posts I lose catch etc thru higher stroke rate I am guessing but saves my shoulders from injury as less pressure.
Next session I am going to do some stoke count
Michael, I've been following your journey now for what, 2 years? 4 years? And in all that time of really good marathoners here giving you excellent advice, I have never seen you thank anyone. Maybe start there.
Just because you're an elite athlete in orienteering doesn't mean you can or ever will be an elite athlete in marathon swimming. Just enjoy the swimming, FFS. The glass is actually half full. Life is good.
Great googly moogly.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
“Anyone who is great at something experiences endless hours of frustration. But they don't whine endlessly about it. Everything worth doing requires a little forward progress with a little crash and burn. “
And that right there, @curly, is the meaning of life. I can’t love this post enough.
Comments
I don't think this is a reasonable goal. I don't know how competitive your national team is, but most elite swimmers have been swimming since they were very young. That isn't to say that a few people don't pick up swimming a bit later and excel at it, but that's fairly unusual. Swimming is about 85% technique, which is the ability to feel and work with the water efficiently. This is developed over years of practice, with attention to the feedback that water gives. Some folks are born with a higher natural affinity for feeling the water and with years of hard work, those people become the elite swimmers you idolize. Like others here have repeatedly said, you need to invest in quality coaching if you want to see any significant improvement. I'd also recommend reevaluating your goals, realizing that there are no shortcuts and trying to focus on enjoying swimming, rather than your current frustrating and unrealistic approach.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
How do I find a coach who will fit me? I want to find a coach who teaches me technique for me to increase the speed which is sustainable for long distance (e.g. an English Channel swim) without relying a large amount of aerobic fitness, which my current squad coach does not believe so (she thinks that glide is a dirty world and just want me to increase my stroke rate which leads me to overheating and burning out).
Another coach I know who has proven record in training marathon swimmers unfortunately runs his squad in a member-only facility in a place which is extremely inconvenient for me to get to (an hour from work or two hours from home in peak hour traffic using the most direct transport route) and I'm not sure about his style.
I don't know what your other sport is that you are on the national team. But my question is, how long did it take you to be good at your other sport so you could make the national team? How much time and effort did you put into it to be competitive? How did you find the coaching that worked for you on your national team? It seems to me that if you are good enough to be a national team member in your other sport, you would probably be able to apply what you learned in that sport to developing your skills in this sport. But what do I know?
It took me 5 years since starting to do that sport, and 3 years in the particular discipline before I qualified. However the main skill needed in that sport is map reading, which is not related to swimming at all.
I didn't have a coach in that discipline as it is still in early stage of development here.
Another sport I did was competitive programming. It took me 3 years to get to the national team for high school competition, but I have never qualified for the world championship in collegiate programming contest. It maybe because I hated some of the skills needed (i.e. algorithms) in that level so I was not willing to put effort in it, but at high school level the importance of that was not that high.
Some coaches will work with you by video. You can also help yourself a bit by having a friend take some video of you in the pool, then compare it to video of efficient distance swimmers. You can easily find videos of world class 1500m swimmers, look at several, because everyone has their own form. Look for the common elements. Many of them will turn over faster than what will work for you, but remember they are only swimming for ~15 minutes and you are training to swim for ~15 hours.
It might be worth it to travel to work with a marathon coach once or twice a month or attend a multi-day clinic. When I coach adults, I usually work with them once or twice, then have them practice the skills we worked on until they feel like they need more help.
It sounds like the coach you are working with is used to coaching pool sprinters. While there are some marathon swimmers who can sustain a high turnover, I believe it's more efficient for most swimmers to use a lower stroke rate and glide more. You described what happens when you raise your stroke rate as unsustainable, so you've kind of answered your own question. I think I saw that you'd tried TI in the past; those drills are effective for keeping your balance, staying streamlined and engaging your core. Perfecting those skills will definitely help you swim more efficiently.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
It is a triathlon club and most people in the club are triathletes (which I also do aquathons as well). In general is the training method the same for marathon swimming or for Ironman?
I have been following this because I need entertainment, but I am seeing really good coaches chime in with no effect and I guess I must write. One. More. Time.
Michael. You can not do this on your own terms. Part of being an elite athlete is pivoting- or reacting- to stressors. These stressors can be external, like weather, climate, water temperature, or tides (or coronavirus). They can be internal like confidence, maturity, self-awareness, bravery and heart for the struggle. I live where I live, with the climate, the family, the post-brain injury motion sickness, the financial circumstances, the resources, the clinical depression, and everything else I have. I can turn those things into excuses for why I can not do things (I will not do the Oceans 7 due to a few of those issues) or I can adapt and move forward with what I can do GIVEN MY CIRCUMSTANCES. Living where I live, with all the aforementioned conditions, if I want to become, say, a Himalayan mountain climber (at the same level at which I swim), it COULD happen but not without a lot of sacrifice and modification. I can not simulate those conditions living in new England USA but if it was my absolute dream, I would try make it happen.
This is part of the advice I gave you in March 2019 based on a video of your stroke at the time:
"your stroke looks pretty strong. There are some inefficient parts to it that you can easily correct...but the main thing is that your head needs to stay STILL. Every time your head picks up your whole body falls down in the water or spreads out (your legs get wide like a snowplow, for example) so that is the adjustment with the biggest impact that you can make."
Your response was that you were sighting a lot that day and that your neck was affected by sighting a lot the day before and that your coach had told you about the "leg problem" and you were "concentrating hard to avoid it."
OK, so it seems that some of your skills that you use in your pursuits that you are good at are reading, logic and comprehension. These are skills that you have developed since you were probably 5 or 6 years old. Every day you add a little more to what you already are good at. You didn't suddenly learn how to do this stuff.
Same with swimming. You are expecting instant results and are frustrated when you don't get it. 1 or 2 years of swimming is beginner level. You are actually getting some pretty good results for a complete neophyte, but realize that you will need a ton more time to get to the level you would like to be at.
High school swim teams take a bunch of age group swimmers and train them for 3 or 4 years, depending on the school system. At the end of those 4 years, there are swimmers who make state finals. Some of those kids go on to national level. Most don't. And that's after swimming competitively for possibly 10 or 12 years. Then you have college, then you have the Olympics.
Then you have the rest of us...
Training for <5K swims is not the same as training for a channel crossing. For triathlon training (I used to be at USAT coach as well), I'd suggest swimming intervals, breaking your race distance into chunks and practice changing speed/effort, as well as some technique. Swimming is a small part of an Ironman, training time is better spent on cycling and running endurance. For marathon swimming, you need to be efficient and figure out how to hold your form after 5, 10 or 15 hours. If you can't hold on to decent technique when you're tired, you situation will deteriorate, the tide will change, the wind will pick up and the sun might even go down. The hardest part is usually the last few hours, proportionately. For a 4 hour swim, I plan to pick up speed for the last 90 minutes. A swim over 5 hours, I plan on giving it more effort in the last 2 hours. A common set I might use: 5x2000, each one faster than the last, then 4x500 (faster pace) and 6x150 as hard as I can go. I focus on my form, especially as I get tired. Being acclimated to the water conditions and being certain of your nutritional plan is equally as important, because those things can completely derail your swim.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
I just found out that I have some videos taken early February which I haven't uploaded before, although the quality is not good.
They were taken two weeks after I did a 14 km race so they shouldn't be much different than what I raced.
Am I so bad that I should really stop all the squad training and only work on my technique in the meantime?
Also, I'm planning to do some total immersion lessons next month, hope that they can give me improvement.
Short answer is yes, stop screwing around and get some honest coaching on your stroke. I won't go into everything because I don't have the time. But look at your right arm for starters. It is not your friend. Your catch is not getting any power and the end of the stroke looks as though you have a bit of a hitch that then resolves to a ineffectual push at the water. Most of the stroke of your right arm is getting maybe 50% of an actual catch and pull. You are sort of karate chopping your hand through the water. That is not a pull.
You are obviously fit and probably strong, but your arms are just flailing away at the water. You will never be fast or good at swimming until you get your stroke to actually move you through the water with power and efficiency. Left arm is not as bad as right but I'm being kind right now. I'm not going to discuss how little your kick helps your arms. No leverage, no balance, just moving your feet. You've got work to do and conditioning isn't the problem here. So squad training is probably only giving you something to be frustrated about, but it isn't helping your core issue, which is technique. But you might have heard this all before...
OK - another 2 years of training down the drain now. It took me 4 years to get to the standard to get to the squad because I didn't know how I could find coaching, and just brute-forced my way to the squad standard, and now another 2 years of training in the squad without much improvement.
I joined the particular squad because it is run by the sports centre of the university I'm in. 3 months into the squad I did a video analysis, then took some lessons afterwards. No speed improvement afterwards. I started to doubt if the squad coach is good for me, but the fact that nearly all marathon swimmers in the city train in the squad that I'm in made me continue for another season.
The reason of my doubt is that the squad coach which uses swim smooth continues to want me to increase my stroke rate despite I'm not getting much out of my stroke. She just thinks by increase my stroke rate my dead spot can be eliminated and get a better form, and she thinks it's better to use higher stroke rate in open water.
I'm extremely unhappy now knowing that all the things I did in the past 2 years were not useful for me, and I have to start everything again as a total beginner in another club which I don't have friends there.
Enjoy the process
Michael, you spent 2 years gaining confidence and experience with pool and open water swimming. Even if you did not gain speed or technique, 2 years spent swimming cannot be a total waste. Swimming technique is not built in a day or even in a year. I have been swimming for 12 years (half my life) and there are still elements of my technique that I think about and work to improve everyday that I am in the water.
Try to find one thing to get out of every training session, even if it is just a little thing. For example: today I swam with a group of people who are much slower than me, so I was not going to get a huge speed benefit from that workout, but I had a lot of fun, met new people, and got to lead a group while I am usually playing catch up. Those are 3 positive take aways from my swim this morning. Rather than focusing on how your 2 years were a "waste," try to focus on the small things you have gotten out of it.
For a lot of us 2020 will be/has been "a waste" by your definition, but it would just be plain depressing to focus on all the missed racing opportunities rather than the unique swimming experiences and growth opportunities provided my having to grapple with change. I recognize that you care immensely about your swimming and I respectfully think your attitude is the number one thing standing in your way.
@abbygirlrose it wont be a waste...we have plans.
@miklcct - @abbygirlrose and I are training partners. She is 5'4" on a good day and I'm 6'4'' on a short day - we are the exact same pace and have completely different stroke techniques and stroke rates. We're both relatively quick for marathon swimmers but swim very differently. I take half the amount of strokes as she does because I use my size effectively and she is able to stick with me (and I to her) because she has an excellent cadence and catch. Find what your strengths are and what works for you and stick to it. Good luck!
If you really want to fix your stroke, a great coach out of the UK is Adam Walker, give him a call - he's a great guy and is extremely invested in his swimmers.
@miklcct In addition to what others said, you need to work on your body position. You want your hips near the surface and your legs tucked in behind them. Think about what your frontal surface area looks like and try to reduce the size of it, so you are pushing less water. Visualize swimming in a pipe, TI drills (X-Y-I drill, remember to keep your hips tight, squeeze your glutes) will help you with that by focusing on balancing forward. Imagine your body is a see-saw, but the fulcrum isn't in the middle, (it's at your chest), so you have to push harder on the short end of the board.
Another way to get your balance forward is to let your stroke catch up a bit more. When your hand enters the water, instead of pulling down immediately, extend your arm forward while leaning on your arm pit. This will lengthen your stroke and you should coast forward, (TI side kicking drill helps with that position). If it helps you to visualize this, try to keep your arm out in front of your body until your recovering hand passes your ear. Some people need to tap their ear with their thumb to feel the timing.
If you are able to get access to the pool during a quiet lap swim, that's the best time to focus on technique. Work on one thing at a time and figure out integrating it into your stroke. Go back and forth between drill and stroke. Be patient, changing your stroke takes time.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
As the total immersion coach I've approach can't promise me a set date for resuming the lessons, I have decided to find another coach to have some 1-1 lessons first which I will start next Tuesday. He's a national triathlon team member, therefore I believe he can teach me technique which will be useful for long distance open water swimming.
Also, I have taken some videos today as a record. Please advise.
@miklcct - videos filmed in open water with a stationary camera aren't ideal. If possible, here's what I recommend for filming your stroke so a remote coach can offer useful feedback:
Example:
The pools I use do not allow filming. That's my problem I've stated over these 2 years.
There is no pool in all of Hong Kong or any location you've traveled over the past 2 years that allows filming? Try harder. This is important.
The public pools in Hong Kong do not allow filming. The guards actively intervene in it.
The only non-public pools I have access are the ones in my university. They don't allow filming as well which I asked and confirmed.
@miklcct yeah, I think you need a good stroke coach. All the feedback you’ve gotten on this feed is great though!!
The emphasis in triathlon swimming has really moved to a fast stroke rate. I’m not entirely sure why. Before covid, I sometimes swam in the pool with a couple friends who consistently are among the top 10 professional Ironman triathletes in the world (I mention because credentials are important to you). I’m a faster swimmer than both of them and I take 16-17 strokes/25 meters, whereas they take around 23-25 strokes/25 meters. Nevertheless, they are obviously doing great and have both improved their swimming substantially by working with coaches and listening very carefully to the feedback they get. I personally prefer a more efficient, slower stroke rate, especially for long swims, but I can see how a faster stroke rate works for some people.
The more relevant thing to think about is getting your body into a balanced position (as @wendyv34 mentioned). Even when I was swimming in college, we would spend part of practice just floating, face down for a time. “Float like a boat”, my coach would say. Once you get your body to float as well as a kayak, a little power goes a long way!!
Since no one else has mentioned it, I also recommend that after you arm enters the water, point your finger tips down very soon and keep your elbow high. They call this “the catch” and it should feel like your arm is rolling over a barrel.
If you (or anyone else reading) want some good demos of stroke drills to practice these things, check out Chloe Sutton on YouTube. Her videos are my favorite. Well, David Marsh has done good ones also.
Finally, oh my gosh, I watched those recent videos and that looks like an awesome place to swim!!
The bold part of the statement is where I am now - if I try hard to extend my arm, get my body stiff, and glide much longer than usual, I can bring by stroke count to 16 - 18 but my body is so much tired only after 1 single length which I can't sustain.
And the italic part is what I want to learn, but my triathlon squad coach doesn't want me to do so. She thinks that if I spin my arm faster my form is better, one of the reason is because my legs won't drop so much between strokes, another reason is that less glide = less deceleration / acceleration which is more efficient, and it works better in open water, but the problem is that I can't sustain that for the distance I want to do! She then thinks it is a fitness issue. I kept training in the squad hoping that would work for a year, but it turned out not. I really can't sustain that "better form" from a higher stroke rate.
I just showed a video of Neil and she thinks I shouldn't learn his style as I'm not swimming 100 km. She thinks a good role model will be those who are racing 10 km in FINA races.
That's one of the best diving spots in Hong Kong and I have a friend who live nearby. Therefore he now guides us to swim there every weekend. He has started open water swimming this year and plan to do some 10 km soon.
If you find yourself in Hong Kong after the border reopens and I'm still here by then, I will introduce you to my group there.
Can swim coaches who are employed by pools in Hong Kong film their students during a lesson?
This is a grey area - theoretically no but tolerated if it is not done so "publicly".
The "professional" video analysis services are all done in private pools which need to get "special permission". I know 3 coaches (Fenella Ng, Dominic Tsui, Henry Wright) who offer this kind of service which I did once early 2019 with Fenella Ng because I was training in her squad as well. I've lost confidence in her already due to all the reasons I have stated in previous replies. However Simon (who did both the English Channel and round HK swim) says she is the best coach in Hong Kong he's encountered.
I've contacted Dominic Tsui and tried out his squad, but his focus is in pool swimming so I'm not continuing.
The remaining one is Henry Wright. I know a friend who has got good improvement after training with him (he has a master squad and also a triathlon / open water squad) but unfortunately the location (SCAA in So Kon Po) is too hard to reach in peak hour traffic.
Not to derail thread, but I'm curious why you aren't allowed to film a swimmer. That seems like a really unusual law. I know different places have different laws, so I would like to know the thinking behind this one. In contrast, I've actually had lifeguards in my pool take some video clips of me so I could work out a stroke problem. The only reason I can think of is that you are videoing people in various states of undress and in a modest society, this might seem a little indecent. Same reason we don't allow cell phone use in a locker room.
Second point regarding ways to film considering that you can't do it in a pool. I wonder if it's possible to rig a go pro camera on a kayak. Then the kayak could pace along with the swimmer and get some good shots that way. It would take a little practice to figure out the best way, but I bet it could be done.
Third point. There is an improvement in your stroke from the older videos to the newer videos, so your efforts have not been in vain. I still think you need good coaching. I'm not sure a triathlon coach is ideal because the goals and aims of a triathlete swimmer and a marathon swimmer are different. You need a swim coach, not a multidisciplinary sport coach. It's the difference between a music teacher and a guitar teacher.
@curly in the UK, filming restrictions are usually about child protection, but filming is also potentially a threat to women’s safety, particularly when things end up online.
@miklcct - first, I think it's great that you're trying to be more proactive about improving your stroke by seeking feedback and coaching. Having said that, after 2 years of swimming, you should be able to watch those videos of yourself and identify at least a few things in your stroke that could be improved upon. There's no one "right" way of swimming, but there are some things that any coach/technique/philosophy will say are wrong. So what's one specific thing (not that you should be more efficient or have a more TI-like stroke, or should swim more like whomever, etc.) you think you should work on, and why? And what will you do before your 1 on 1 coaching to work on it? All the coaching and advice in the world won't help if you don't think things are actually problems and aren't willing to work on them.
@miklcct that makes sense, what your current coach is saying. It might be too big of a jump to go from 23-25 to 16-17. Here’s a little set I like to do during lap swim to work on my “distance per stroke”:
4x300s
First 100 18 strokes/25
2nd 100 17 strokes/25
3rd 100 16 strokes/25
Take 20-30 sec rest (or until you feel yourself catch your breath) do it again. Just like you, I get more tired (and also get faster) as my stroke count gets lower. I can’t sustain the 16s for all that long, so it’s good technique practice along with fitness training.
You could start at 25 strokes/25, then get one fewer each 100 instead of starting with 18. But the first 100 should feel not too hard.
I visited Hong Kong in 2004 and I truly enjoyed it. I wasn’t into open water swimming at that time, so would love to swim there if I ever get to go back. What a beautiful place—it was different than here and therefore felt very unique and special to me.
I actually don't know, but what my coach has said in these 2 years include:
I think for my case my goals and aims are more similar to a "triathlete swimmer" because:
I don't want a swim coach who focuses on pool / master swimming to teach me skills which are only useful for short distance / pool swimming but not sustainable for triathlon distances.
There are no "pool skills" and "open water skills". You learn your technique, period, which should be the same for everyone and regardless of the coach. And in the meantime you adapt your fitness/cardio to your goals (i.e. distance you want swim); this is where differences between coaches may arise, including stroke rate and kicking rate, gliding, etc.
But you can't get faster without improving your technique, and this you have to do with drills (usually in the pool, but not necessarily). The longer you want to swim, the more important is technique (you are more efficient, therefore you need less effort to keep a specific speed, or with the same effort you swim faster).
Then in open water you adapt your technique to conditions: e.g. a lake or a beach early in the morning are like a pool; but in choppy seas, you try to lift your arms upper than in the pool, and usually you have to roll further or with the head slightly backwards to prevent sucking water when breathing; in front waves or following seas you have to adapt your stroke and breathing rate to the waves; for long distances you try to reduce your kicking; etc. This is where you can accept advice from coaches and fellow swimmers, but you have to test, learn and adapt for yourself: what works for me might not work for you.
So (1) Technique and (2) Adaptation to conditions in OW. With both you then build (3) Confidence, which is quite important (as it is to know when you shouldn't swim: due to sea conditions, weather conditions (either too cold or too hot), your conditions...). With this and (4) Willpower you are (almost) unstoppable. This doesn't mean you'll be fast, or that you'll never DNF, but more important: you'll be able to set realistic goals and then work for them. Step by step.
Note that for (3) and (4), and partly for (2), you don't need any coach.
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Michael, I've been busting a gut not to say this...but why are you even planning an EC swim? What are you doing it for if there are so many obstacles you're complaining about? If you really want this, go out of your way to find solutions.I've never read so much negativity or so many excuses to not train, not to swim with a squad, not to book a session in an endless pool for stroke analysis, etc. etc. I really don't mean to be rude, but you do the same in the distance swimming groups on Facebook. You massively overthink everything. You don't need to match an Olympian. You don't need to be perfect or elite. Not one of us has it perfect. If you really want this, just go for it and look for opportunities. Yes, it's hot, but I've read replies on FB from swimmer friends who have the same training conditions and simply adapt. They have told you how to cope. Yet you're still asking the same questions. Pool technique will do you so much good. Many of us started in the pool and literally learned with the waves and time in the sea/lake. You can't plan it all in advance. Relax a little. You don't sound like you even enjoy it and that's so sad. It does make me wonder what your actual motivation is. Are you doing this because you really want to swim long distances? I'd love to know.
Here's a suggestion from an old, old swimming teacher: Get a kick-board and learn to have a solid flutter kick! Hold the kick-board at the middle of both sides, thumbs on top, fingers under...stretch the board out in front, with your chin in the water (not face down). Go to a 25 or 50 yard/meter pool and do at least 10 reps. by 50 yards with a minute rest between each 50. I think this drill will help develop your kick...make it more efficient and as you become skillful in doing the flutter kick, your body position will be more balanced and stronger. Later, once you establish all of this, I'd want to develop your arm technique. I'd like to see you narrow the width of your kick, keep up with your toes pointed back (You need to learn to do this rhythmically & dynamically). Try to keep the kick just under the surface of the water. Meanwhile, I wouldn't worry too much about developing/improving the rest of the stroke...but make sure you do this drill until you can move your body straight down a lane with rhythm, balance and efficiency. All the best (feel free to disregard everything I've suggested!!!).
I need to plan everything in advance otherwise I don't have confidence. When I booked the slot early February this year no one anticipated COVID would become a pandemic. I knew that if I wanted to do it in 2021 I couldn't wait anymore. Why I want to do it in 2021 is because I want to do a working holiday to experience overseas living which the legal age limit is 30. I can't work out a way which I can get a long stay visa in a foreign country while retaining my freedom of work.
(However this may change due to recent madness in Hong Kong no one anticipated a few months earlier. The UK may offer a special kind of visa to BNO holders which allows us to work freely. If it realises I will regret my decision to book a 2021 slot.)
I have worked out a plan how I should build up my technique, speed and endurance from February this year to August next year, but then we all know what happened.
I used to enjoy swimming and really wanted to swim long distances but no longer now, for one single reason because the weather is too hot.
I literally don't know how to do a flutter kick. The coach in the group training made us to do this drill yesterday night. No matter how I moved / rotated my legs / hips I didn't move at all. I'll get my coach to teach me this in my coming 1-1.
In the past I didn't know how to even kick properly at all. Then I learnt the 2-beat kick from a TI coach.
This is excellent advise. That said, there's indeed a tremendous amount of variability in the strokes of elite 1500 meter swimmers, as well as 10K swimmers and beyond. Different strokes seem to work for different folks. As it applies to extremely fast, elite EC swimmers, Trent Grimsey, Penny Dean, & Philip Rush had high turnover strokes, whereas Petar Stoychev & Yuri Kudinov did not. By the same token, some have big kicks, and others are borderline leg draggers.
One thing I've noticed at my age (56) is that I'm simply not as physically strong as I was 7-8 years ago. Thus, I've converted to a high turnover stroke with a relatively shallow pull. In my late 40s, DPS was probably excellent for someone of my height (slightly over 6') at 33-34 strokes per 50 meters. Now, I'm at about 40-42, and it's working out fine. One positive factor I didn't account for in the change is that the higher turnover stroke seems to elevate my body position.
Keep moving forward.
Stroke can fixed on land!
No necessary in ow or pool!
Think from my practice!)))
My opinion
I seem not to know other way to swim than the one I have.
, to short breathing time, too often (too much air 
)
I have tried to increase the stroke rate, but I felt I had to willingly sacrifice the pull.
Also breathing at 2 strokes and increasing the stroke rate seems to bring too much noise
I also don't imagine increasing the rate and going at 3 strokes breathing - maybe without pulling, otherwise increasing the arms stroke rate, determines the elevation as well and makes me kick a bit faster - as my mind somehow coordinates the leg movements with the arms movement and I get more tired than my "normal" way.
Really I don't see how others can do it, to efficiently addapt their strokes and I tried to bring variety - to see what fits me. I start considering that those that increase the rate do it, so they keep the pace, while their arms arms are tired (like swimming in the pool and "racing" with others).
Also, because I don't want to sacrifice the pull and I see myself doing a decent pull, all my pulls bring fatigue to my arms and sometimes I feel pain in the shoulders, during and after training, although I try to use my back muscles in the rotation (breathing on the right side, when pulling my right arm) and these days I don't seem to detension my upper body - not even after a 1 day rest between trainings.
Same here.. If I increase stroke rate I have to pull harder in order to have a faster turnover otherwise I just end up fighting the water.. So for me increase stroke rate means go faster and get tired faster. I made an experiment using a tempo trainer and fixing the stroke rate to a value that I considered to be a bit high but sustainable to me. I put 62 SPM and start swimming for 6Km no stop... The result was a half disaster, I started strong but fatigue was building up and while trying to keep up with the 62 SPM my pull got weaker and my stroke length decreased.. I ended up slowing down a lot every km...
I should try the same with maybe 58 SPM and see if I find a sweet spot rate that I can sustain for long time without loosing much speed. Once I will find this value I'll try to increase it a bit and keep it for the same time.. This will ultimately translate in a speed increase... But all these experiments are better done in the pool in my opinion as in open water, external factors (wind, waves, cold etc) will make it difficult and unnatural to sustain a fixed rate...
... But all these experiments are better done in the pool in my opinion as in open water, external factors (wind, waves, cold etc) will make it difficult and unnatural to sustain a fixed rate...
And in an olympic one, because turning can also affect the conclusion.
My Garmin says I am at 52 strokes per minute in lake/ow.
10k pool - around 42 strokes per minute.
And I was affraid is due to an untrained heart - i can't keep a bigger number.
I took my first lesson with Abraham (a national triathlete) on Tuesday. The first thing he made me to do after seeing me is to tell me to kick. Then he made me to increase my cadence and keep my hips flat. He explained to me that by kicking more, my legs can bring my arms cadence up, and keeping my hips flat can bring more power to the stroke rather than slipping through the water when my hips are rotated as well. All these are directly contrary to TI. I showed doubt about the method but he proved to me using a stopwatch that I got faster by timing my 100 then 50 by the end of the lesson, which I both got 3 seconds faster than my previous best.
I told him my goal is to make my 10 km faster and he thought I need to make my 100 - 200 - 400 m faster first.
I returned to the pool today and practised on my own, and I found out that I couldn't even sustain what he taught for 200 m. The stroke count for my initial 50 was about 53 and for my final 50 was about 64. (For comparison, in the lesson when I did a single 50, the stroke count was about 47). The initial 100 m was 1'36" and it ended up at 3'25".
Yes this is also what I tried in the past, if I force myself at a stroke rate which I can't sustain, my pull got weaker and weaker and my stroke length decreases a lot, slowing down every km. My sustainable stroke rate mainly depends on the water temperature. (I suspect my sustainable stroke rate is about 60 at 27°C, 56 at 30°C, and may be up to 64 at 16°C).
It sounds like your coach had some really good input. When you followed it, your stroke rate and time improved. So now you're upset because you can't sustain something you just learned how to do? Honestly, I sometimes wonder how you are able to cope with the world. Give yourself a break. Practice what you learned from this coach and amaze yourself in a few months. His tips were very observant and you had obvious improvement. So get out there, practice your new skills and build yourself into a good swimmer.
This thread is amazing. I don't know why I keep jumping into it, but it's not like I have a whole lot going on these days.
@miklcct that’s awesome that the coach’s advice made you get faster right away. Keep practicing, your body will adapt and you’ll be able to sustain it for longer. That’s the essence of training—you can do this!
I go high stroke rate but put no pressure on the shoulders by doing so...although the biggest swim I have done is 21km so not sure if how it will hold up after that.
Also I don't kick just let the legs float behind me
Out of curiosity.. what you consider high stroke rate? Would you say you have shoulder driven style? I understood you are quite fast so i am interested to know the SPM you can keep for 10k or more...
I like rhythm in the pool and do lots of 10km pool swims where just get in and don't think - hold 1.30 per 100m for 10km and is my comfortable pace, although cant go much quicker if go harder (they joy of not being able to sprint)
Stroke rate is quicker than most people I swim with but need to actually count it for accurate numbers as never really found important. I am as you described it a shoulder driven style and like previous posts I lose catch etc thru higher stroke rate I am guessing but saves my shoulders from injury as less pressure.
Next session I am going to do some stoke count
Michael, I've been following your journey now for what, 2 years? 4 years? And in all that time of really good marathoners here giving you excellent advice, I have never seen you thank anyone. Maybe start there.
Just because you're an elite athlete in orienteering doesn't mean you can or ever will be an elite athlete in marathon swimming. Just enjoy the swimming, FFS. The glass is actually half full. Life is good.
Great googly moogly.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
“Anyone who is great at something experiences endless hours of frustration. But they don't whine endlessly about it. Everything worth doing requires a little forward progress with a little crash and burn. “
And that right there, @curly, is the meaning of life. I can’t love this post enough.
Stop me if you've heard this one...
A grasshopper walks into a bar...
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