Unsanctioned swims

2»

Comments

  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin

    The question "How is solo kayaking different from a kayak-escorted solo swim" is revealing, for sure.

    Also revealing is the question not asked: "Is it even safe to escort a solo swim around Manhattan with only a kayak?"

    NoelFigartChrisgreenemiklcct
  • GarbageBargeGarbageBarge NY (Hudson Valley)Mem​ber

    Not what I asked, and not the context I asked it in, but your response reveals your own prejudice. You can't accept that someone could self-organize a safe swim so you respond every time with the same line of reasoning. I accept that you and David don't think it can be done safely. You don't accept my premise that _if _it could be done safely, would there be a legal reason that you couldn't do it. Permits keep getting mentioned.

    What I asked:

    A solo kayaker can just start kayaking around NYC. How is it different if he's kayaking next to a swimmer? Legally different.

    You don't need a permit to kayak around. You don't need a permit to swim in other NYC waterways. Why would a swimmer need one around Manhattan (with a kayaker, boat, exit plan, all relevant safety precautions and David Barra approved radios)? Feel free to _not _reply if you don't know the answer or don't want to answer. Please understand, I get it that the MSF charter members don't think it's safe and could not possibly be made to be safe and should under no circumstances be recognized. Message received and understood.

    miklcct
  • david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member

    Permits don't keep getting mentioned. SAFETY keeps getting mentioned.
    Permits are a small part of A comprehensive safety plan.

    ...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited July 2019

    No doubt there are a few people out there, and on this Forum, and including @david_barra, who could safely self-organize a solo Manhattan swim, if they wanted to. They are choosing not to post information on the internet that could give you the false sense that you've done due diligence, and selfishly undertake an activity that could jeopardize others' ability to enjoy the same waters.

    gregocdavid_barraChrisgreene
  • GarbageBargeGarbageBarge NY (Hudson Valley)Mem​ber

    They can't help themselves.

    miklcct
  • malinakamalinaka Seattle, WACharter Member

    Even if someone were to give you an answer on permits, I wouldn't trust it. On the water, rules (especially about swimming) are seldom hard and fast. You might get different answers from different agencies, and then they might give you different answers if you call back tomorrow. There is really only one correct way to find out what permits you need or don't.

    wendyv34suziedods

    I don't wear a wetsuit; it gives the ocean a sporting chance.

  • GarbageBargeGarbageBarge NY (Hudson Valley)Mem​ber

    I hear you. So ask for forgiveness rather than permission.

    I kid! Take it easy safety police.

    miklcct
  • gregocgregoc Charter Member

    @GarbageBarge, it doesn't seem like you are going to get the answers you are looking for from some very experienced people. The fact that you keep asking what the difference is between a kayaker and a kayaker escorting a swimmer doesn't help. It makes you seem like you're not serious and just trolling.

    rosemarymintdpm50NoelFigartChrisgreenedavid_barraAlex_Arevalo
  • GarbageBargeGarbageBarge NY (Hudson Valley)Mem​ber

    Backcountry skiing has inherent dangers. You can buy all the safety gear, read all the weather and current condition reports, take all the avalanche safety courses, go with a buddy and exercise all the due diligence in the world, and although you probably won’t, you could still get hurt, need rescue, or die (almost forgot: and bring the right radio!). You can also go to any number of backcountry skiing forums online and seek out advice. Everyone there will tell you to do it safely, but no one will tell you not to do it. Even the self-appointed grand poohbahs won’t tell you to not do it. If you’re contemplating an epic ascent/descent, the Manhattan of backcountry skis, they’ll encourage you to work your way up to it, but they won’t discourage you from working your way up to it. They probably won’t assume you’re not capable to begin with though. And you don’t need anyone’s permission. That’s how I view open water swimming. Except for the forum part obviously. All of you do too. Some of you just can’t admit it if it means eschewing an established entity.

    Maybe a better analogy is whitewater rafting. There are some rivers that you need a permit for (although it’s not a closely held secret by anyone). Some of those permits have prior experience requirements and safety requirements. I have no problem with that. I’ve always qualified my inquiry with: if you do it safely. It’s like those words are invisible. But in this case, even though there are commercial outfits already established on the river, you don’t need their permission to raft the river. You don’t have to go through them to raft it.

    Established, organized swims are no guarantee of safety. Ask the NYC Triathlon people. I’d bet the house more people have died in “association” organized swims than on self-organized swims. More in numbers and more per swim. If MIMS, 2 Bridges, or 8 Bridges go long enough, the odds will catch up to any of them. Riding my bike down Broadway to work every morning, from Columbus Circle to 35th (I once saw Harrison Ford in Central Park on one of those rides! Woody Allen and Soon Yi on the way home another time), was far, far more dangerous than swimming any stretch of NYC waterways, but I trusted my knowledge and skill and accepted the risk. And I didn’t need to ask anyone for permission. Also didn’t ask for any recognition. I’m accepting risk when I swim alone at White Pond. A little less risk if I swim with a buddy. There’s always risk.

    At any rate, I said it before, but I guess I gotta say it again, I’m not contemplating an actual Manhattan bootleg or MIMS swim. It’s a hypothetical conversation under a bootleg swimming discussion thread, aka a dangerous and irresponsible discussion (at least if you are a naïve asshole-dick expressing a dissenting opinion from you know who). I would, however, be willing to volunteer for a properly planned bootlegger with the paperwork (if needed, alas we’ll never know on this thread) or a MIMS swimmer (also said previously). I am in fact an experienced kayaker, but my point on kayaking was lost in the fog of safety and telling me my place. I have nothing against MIMS or any other Association, but my definition of “respect” doesn’t require me to go through them if the law allows otherwise.

    Now please enjoy the following messages on safety. And radios.

    suziedodsmiklcct
  • swimrn62swimrn62 Stowe, VTSenior Member

    I'm a kayaker and a (new) swimmer. I've paddled around Manhattan many dozens of times over 14 years, with and without a swimmer. To be defensive, we don't go out with just our eyes open (though our view is better). We go out with marine radios, rescue skills, and proper gear. If you're asking why swimmers need a permit but paddlers don't, then I'm guessing you are not a kayaker, or at least not a skilled kayaker.
    NYC kayakers live in fear of the day when an inexperienced paddler goes out and gets into trouble and the rest of us end up forced to obtain permits, permissions, etc.

    Also, it's hard to imagine it being cost effective to do your own swim vs paying those who have planned this swim for so many years. I think David Barra's piano tuning example was perfect.

    NoelFigartgregocChrisgreenedavid_barraevmoAlex_Arevalo
  • NoelFigartNoelFigart Lebanon, NHSenior Member

    shrugs At this point, guys, y'all know you're feedin' a troll, right?

    gregocrosemarymint
  • FlowSwimmersFlowSwimmers Polson, MontanaMember

    My favorite marathon bootleg comes the Munich Olympics in 1972 and Frank Shorter's Wikipedia page:

    "As Shorter was nearing the stadium, German student Norbert Sudhaus entered the stadium wearing a West German track uniform, joined the race and ran the last kilometre. Thinking he was the winner, the crowd began cheering him before officials realized the hoax and security escorted Sudhaus off the track. Arriving seconds later, Shorter was perplexed to see someone ahead of him and to hear the boos and catcalls that were meant for Sudhaus."

    Personally, in November, I entered an open water swimming race in Mazatlan, Mexico: 60 pesos (<$5) gets you into the 1500M race and a t-shirt! At 55, I was stoked with my second place finish behind a very fit local, half my age. However, I found out from the local press that he didn't pay his fee, so I got the official victory, according to the next day's newspaper story.

    No one except the newspaper cared that the kid bootlegged the race: not me, not the event director, and none of the competitors. In the US, there would be event liability issues, of course, but hey, it's Sinaloa, Mexico, in the home of El Chapo and Sean Penn!

  • bobswimsbobswims Santa Barbara CACharter Member
    edited January 2016

    This is a terrific discussion and it is great evidence of the invaluable resource that this website provides. Where else could you have a discussion like this with people from all over the world, concerning a marginal sport populated by questionable types without having to carry a firearm?

    dpm50Leonard_JansenFlowSwimmerssuziedodsflystorms
  • bobswimsbobswims Santa Barbara CACharter Member
    edited January 2016

    I think some very important issues are raised by people. In fact they seem, at least to me, to be discussing a number of different types of activities, and a number of issues related to them.

    I think at the heart of the bandit/ghost/bootleg philosophy is that a person should be able to do whatever they want to do. I completely agree with that until it does someone else harm, whether it be in the present or the future.

    In a perfect world, if I go for a swim it's nobody's business, but in truth it is never that simple. What would open water swimming be without races? It would be swimming. But Marathon Swimming is a separate and distinct sport with it's own unique challenges and demands. One of the greatest parts of the sport in my mind is that no 2 swims are ever the same. No 2 bodies of water are ever the same. No 2 sets of conditions are ever the same. Should it come as no surprise that there is no one complete set of rules for the entire sport?

    However, we all know that this sport does not exist because one person gets in the water and swims, but because teams of people who came before you, and people who are with you, make it possible. So I'd like to suggest that maybe in more than any other sport, bandit/ghost/bootleg behavior should be deemed unacceptable in marathon swimming. In fact I'd also like to suggest is that this is one rule that should apply to all marathon swims.

    Let me be honest, I hate restrictions on swimming anywhere in open water. I always hated to go to beaches with lifeguards. Many of us have guarded on the beach and understand the importance of the safety rules for all swimmers, but I found them to be intolerable as a swimmer myself. But that is because the rules were not made with open water swimmers in mind. Contrast that with the rules set up specifically for open water swimmer, or marathon swimmer safety. Well that's a completely different thing.

    As a community we should encourage and endorse safety rules which are in the spirit of the sport. Sure it might be safer to hang on to a kayak when you get tired as some triathlon race directors encourage, but that is not our sport. What is our sport, is working cooperatively together as a team in and out of the water, and with whatever authorities that have the power to bar future swimmers from the waters of their jurisdiction. Maybe we don't like The Man to have power over us, but this is not the 1960's, your not Malcolm X, and we're not talking about kids dying in rice patties. We need to work cooperatively to do whatever is necessary, not just so that you or I have the opportunity to attempt a swim, but so that everyone who follows us have at least an equal, if not better, opportunity to attempt it. Bandit/ghost/bootleg swimming which violates that goal is the antithesis of the spirit of marathon swimming and should not be tolerated.

    evmodpm50david_barraswimrn62NoelFigartLeonard_JansenChrisgreenegregocAlex_Arevalo
  • dpm50dpm50 PA, U.S.Senior Member

    As a newbie to marathon swimming (and I'm not even sure I can quite call my longest distance a "marathon" in comparison to what many of you have done), one thing that helps me have the courage to undertake even the shorter swims I've done is the fact that there are established safety procedures in place, a structure that while not perfect (what structure is perfect anyway?) has been tested and vetted through authorities who should know something about water conditions and such. When I did the Stars and Stripes Aquathlon (an NYC Swim event), and looked up to see a large boat a little nearer than I found comfortable (first time in a NYC river), I cast an uneasy glance at one of the kayakers and mentioned it. He assured me the boat wasn't going any closer, and with that, I continued swimming. Something as simple as that reassurance was all that I needed at that point. I had read the instructions prior to the race, knew the safety procedures and risks, and knew the precautions the organizers were taking. This would not be a swim I'd be comfortable undertaking either on my own (definitely not) or even with a single escort boat. I was glad to have the structure provided by the organizers. Perhaps with much more experience in the sport, I might chafe at such precautions, but I believe steps out of one's comfort zone need to be carefully considered.

    In last year's Boston Light Swim, in which I was a relay swimmer, I was also reassured by the presence of the Coast Guard boats shooing recreational boaters away from the swimmers and also the presence of Greg O'Connor on the course. Having been introduced to this swim as part of a relay, I had a chance to see for myself what kinds of safety measures were in place and thus this year feel more ready to enter the swim as a solo swimmer. Perhaps there will be a day when I can do a solo swim that's not part of an organized marathon swim, but even then, I'll feel better to have the collective expertise of various authorities behind me.

    And for that I am grateful.

    david_barra
  • A couple of odds and ends gleaned from skimming the above.
    Permits have NOTHING to do with safety. You can swim or run or kayak or mountain climb or whatever.. without a permit.
    I disagree w garbagebarge about not-having an independent observer. Yes.. you are only doing it for yourself, no prob there but another set of eyes is never a bad thing.
    Lastly.. none of this ( well most of this )discussion would not be taking place if NYC Swim responded as we EXPECT and HOPE an organizing body would respond.
    Can you imagine if Catalina or either of the two EC organizing and ratifying bodies were to behave as NYC Swim does?
    They take your money... and ........ NOTHING.
    No, I didn't think so.
    They also do not demand a "voluntary donation", which is kind of an anachronism in and of itself, but I digress.
    The side bit is that they run ALOT more swims than does NYC Swim does. They also have ALOT OF HELP.
    Which begs the question.. . AGAIN.. why doesn't NYC Swim ( Morty) ask for help or get help?
    I can't answer that.
    But we are back to.. it is UNACCEPTABLE and why we continue to stand for it I do not know.
    I do not care what you have done for the community, or continue to do for the community, taking money, not responding and leaving people up in the air is completely unacceptable.
    As an organizer you have a duty, both financial and historical to and as a business ( and it is a business) to be receptive, communicative and responsive to your clients. When you get right down to it.. swimmers are clients.
    Swimmers have... paid money, written essays, planned their training, given their CV's and are depending on Morty to communicate to then in return. WHEN is my swim, WHO is my boat pilot, WHO is my kayaker, WHAT else do you need from me?
    What have they gotten in return?
    NADA.
    Again, picture that happening in EC or Catalina?
    I thought so.
    I do not call , planning your own swim around Manhattan "bootlegging" .
    It's called necessity.

    Deemadavid_barramalinakaNoelFigartrosemarymintIronMikemiklcct
  • wendyv34wendyv34 Vashon, WASenior Member

    On a less serious note, this dog bootlegged a half marathon, finished 7th and got a medal:

    http://news.yahoo.com/dog-accidentally-enters-half-marathon-and-finishes-094859627.html

    malinakasuziedodsFlowSwimmersDanSimonelli

    It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.

  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited January 2016

    It's always interesting to explore analogies between marathon swimming and other adventure sports -- mountaineering, hiking, whitewater rafting, backcountry skiing, etc. And there are instructive parallels.

    It's also instructive to consider the ways in which OWS is unique and sui generis. If I could put a word on it, it's that OWS is more interdependent than other adventure sports; our actions can (and often do) influence others' experience of the activity. Consider that Service to the sport is often as highly regarded as swimming achievements.

    People are irritated with NYC Swim, fair enough, but the topic of "unsanctioned" swimming is bigger than that, and a thoughtful discussion of the overarching principle of "unsanctioned swimming of sanctioned swims" can inform how we react to the MIMS situation, specifically.

    DanSimonelli
  • I do not care what you have done for the community, or continue to do for the community, taking money, not responding and leaving people up in the air is completely unacceptable. As an organizer you have a duty, both financial and historical to and as a business ( and it is a business) to be receptive, communicative and responsive to your clients. When you get right down to it.. swimmers are clients. >

    If you promote and do not follow through... what's the point of promoting?
    Also.. again.. there would be no need for bootlegging MIMS, IF THERE WERE A RESPONSE.
    Bootlegging without proper safety, experience and documentation, no doubt MAY ultimately harm the sport.. but who's to say it WILL?
    Good lord, all explorers are bootleggers in a sense.
    Without explorers, we'd still be hangin out in Rome ( not such a bad idea but..)
    I agree w @garbagebarge.. if I want to swim a swim.. lake, river , sea for my own .. without recognition, I should be able to, if I take proper precautions and have a modicum of knowledge of the swim.
    But, due to my innate inability to swim without proclaiming 'I've DONE IT", I would prefer to go the recognized route of whatever swim I choose.
    Bootlegging a mass swim is a big no no. But "bootlegging a solo swim,if you do your due diligence, is just swimming.

    FlowSwimmersflystormsIronMikeGarbageBargeSpacemanspiffloneswimmerlotechnotechPasqualemiklcct
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    Seemed relevant:
    NYOW
    ;)

    ~

    david_barra said:

    8 Bridges News
    Dear Swimmers, Paddlers, Boaters and Friends of 8 Bridges,
    It started in 2011… the first 8 Bridges Hudson River Swim was a dream of mine; an experiment; an expedition that took the full support of Rondi, CIBBOWS, Greg Porteus (Launch 5), and dozens of paddlers and swim buddies to pull off. Because of the dedication of all the aforementioned folks, it was successful. The longest open water event in the world was born!
    2016 will be the 6th annual 8 Bridges and we have had a tremendous response from swimmers and paddlers from the moment we opened registration. Rondi and I are truly proud that so many people continue to come back year after year to spend a week with us on the river… it gets into your blood; this river.
    The CIBBOWS – 8 Bridges association has been a blessing for us during these past 5 years, providing us with mentors, and lasting friendships in a tightly knit community of open water enthusiasts. I can honestly say the encouragement I received from them was instrumental in growing this event… and we have GROWN!
    As I write this, we have more than 50 swimmers registered for more than 110 stage swims! I haven’t done the math yet, but that’s got to be close to 2000 miles of swimming that’s going to take place… many bridge shadows crossed.
    Because of this unprecedented interest in 8 Bridges, we have decided to move forward our plans to form NEW YORK OPEN WATER, a 501(c)(3) organization with similar mission to that of CIBBOWS… the main difference being our regional focus. We are excited about the potential to host additional open water events for swimmers and paddlers, and will continue to work with CIBBOWS to coordinate a calendar to serve the community. Additionally, NYOW will provide logistics, sanctioning, and recording of solo marathon swim in bodies of water throughout NY State under Marathon Swimmers Federation rules.
    We, NEW YORK OPEN WATER are excited about directing the 2016 2 Bridges and 8 Bridges events. Stay tuned for additional 2016 offerings!
    Its going to be a great season!
    Peace,
    David

    david_barrarlmDeemadpm50
  • swimmer25kswimmer25k Charter Member

    So, I'll need a permit AND a wetsuit to bandit the Rio Olympic 10K?

    Kate_AlexanderSpacemanspiffChickenOSeawendyv34swimdailydpm50
  • dpm50dpm50 PA, U.S.Senior Member

    swimmer25k said:
    So, I'll need a permit AND a wetsuit to bandit the Rio Olympic 10K?

    A wetsuit or a hazmat suit. ;)

    gregoc
  • KNicholasKNicholas ArizonaCharter Member
    edited January 2016

    BOOTLEGGING SCAR SWIM (please do):

    I was approached this past fall by a swim travel company that wanted the low down on the ins and outs of swimming Saguaro, Canyon, Apache and Roosevelt (40+ miles of open water over 4 days). We had lunch and I was more than happy to open my "pamphlet of knowledge" to him. The information I gained over the past 5 years in terms of permits, insurance, water temps, air temps, best marine radios, boat support, expenses, underwater unmarked hazards for boats, release of dam water schedules, etc . . . all of it very helpful to a swimmer with questions. A year doesn't go by where I don't learn something new. I guess I could have taken the position of telling him to bugger off, SCAR was my idea and no one better touch it, but that seemed contrary to the vibe I have for the sport. You want to swim it - do it.

    It makes no difference to me if swimmers want to come swim these lakes, consecutively over the course of four days, on their own. I think people should experience it. Swimming it individually or with two or three others would be different than the SCAR SWIM event (60 people, 15 different states, 7 different countries) but that doesn't make it any better or worse. I think in many ways the "lone swim" could be better.

    I encourage the open water community to take less of a "ownership" attitude towards swimming. If the sport would take two heaping servings of humility I doubt the issue of "bootlegging" would even arise. Did the CS&PF bootleg the English Channel? The childish squabbles between the EC organizations is silly and even becomes irrelevant if you book the right pilot (shout out to Stuart Gleeson on Sea Leopard who is a stud). If you swim Catalina and don't go through CCSF then you miss out on all that it has to offer. If you swim around Manhattan on your own - it will be a completely different experience than MIMS. Did you swim it? Sure. Did you experience it? I'd say no only because going through the sanctioning body provides more than the act of swimming . . . actually the experience is enhanced tremendously by going through the sanctioning body simply by the people you meet.

    Now I wouldn't want a bootleg swimmer to paddle up during the SCAR event and join in . . . we'd kill you with empty beer cans.

    gregocdpm50lakesprayDanSimonelliswimrn62Kate_AlexanderphodgeszohoGarbageBargedavid_barradc_in_sfrosemarymintFlowSwimmersJustSwimsuziedodsChrisgreenelotechnotechTMcQueenssthomasJSwimChrisBCopelj26miklcct
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    I've been regularly thinking about this since the start of this thread.
    Reading all the the posts and discussion intently.
    Having some side conversations about it.
    I still haven't come to a definitive conclusion for myself.

    But, here are some thoughts:

    As I think we all share in having our collective compass point toward freedom, which I'd say is the primary motivator for most if not all of us in doing what we do, it occurs to me that the main underlying argument here is about the potential for those that go "unsanctioned", in an area where there is a "sanctioning" organization, to ruin it (i.e., deprive others) by not following established/learned logistics, procedures, safety protocols and having something go wrong, perhaps morbidly so, and then the governing entities closing it off to all swimming.

    This has happened before...in swimming and mountaineering, etc.

    So, is it hubris on the part of the ("bootlegging") person to go forth with disregard to this potential consequence?

    I think it's naive to say that those doing so will have as advanced and effective safety procedures in place, thus increasing the risk, both for themselves as well as the "closure" scenario.

    I have a swimming friend who chooses to do swims this way.
    She's done Catalina Channel, Coronado islands (MX), long 70+ mile relay attempt, and most recently Molokai (Ka'iwi) Channel, and probably others I'm not aware of.
    Each one of these excursions was fraught with mishaps, the last of which ending in the hospital.
    And, I think most if not all of the mishaps would not have happened if they had been following common "sanctioning" orgs' procedures/protocols.

    Yes, the retort will be,
    One can follow all good practices and shit still happen.

    But, therein lies the heart of the matter and the primary, significant purpose of a sanctioning org.
    To standardize the safety for all those who choose to jump in!
    And, to keep it safe so governing bodies don't deprive us all from swimming wild and free!

    :D

    david_barraNoelFigartdpm50Kate_AlexanderevmoChrisgreenesuziedodslotechnotechAlex_Arevalo
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited February 2016

    @KNicholas said: BOOTLEGGING SCAR SWIM (please do)
    I was approached this past fall by a swim travel company that wanted the low down on the ins and outs of swimming Saguaro, Canyon, Apache and Roosevelt

    It seems pretty generous to share both your time and acquired wisdom with someone who I assume intends to profit handsomely from this information. So, kudos to you @KNicholas. I hope he gives you a cut!

    Just curious, and hypothetically speaking... if someone (perhaps a client of this swim travel company) completed (or claimed to complete) one or more of the SCAR swims, and then contacted you, requesting to be added to your list of successful swimmers, would you do it? If so, what sort of documentation would you require?

    rlmTheo
  • Can I "LIKE " Kent's post more ???
    If someone claimed to have done SCAR on their own, and THEN contacted Kent to be added to the list and did not have documentation.. we have another DN issue... don't we?

  • KNicholasKNicholas ArizonaCharter Member

    evmo said:

    @KNicholas said: BOOTLEGGING SCAR SWIM (please do)

    Just curious, and hypothetically speaking... if someone (perhaps a client of this swim travel company) completed (or claimed to complete) one or more of the SCAR swims, and then contacted you, requesting to be added to your list of successful swimmers, would you do it? If so, what sort of documentation would you require?

    SCAR isn't for profit, just fun. My opinion on Bootlegging would probably change if the focus was profit and not good times. As for a list of successful swims, I don't maintain a Master List - haven't evolved to that point. Any request from a swimmer who succeeded in the physical act of swimming but did not participate in SCAR would not be put on the hypothetical list no matter how hard they pleaded.

    ChrisgreeneSpacemanspiffIronMikeGarbageBargeJSwimssthomassuziedodsDanSimonelliJustSwim
  • david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member

    I think there should be an official form to apply for placement on the hypothetical list

    IronMikeChrisgreeneJSwimmalinakassthomasKNicholasFlowSwimmersChrisBJustSwim

    ...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

  • GarbageBargeGarbageBarge NY (Hudson Valley)Mem​ber

    So, as I long suspected, it turns out that the answer to _if _you swam it safely, would it be **legal **to swim around Manhattan isn't _you _can't swim it safely, and you're stupid for asking. The answer, according to a friend in the NYPD who asked a friend in the NYPD Harbor Patrol, is that you can only do it as part of a certified group with a permit. Swimming in NYC water is only allowed at designated beaches (Rockaway, Coney Island, etc.) and if you try to swim Manhattan, you'll be picked up and brought to Bellevue. Kramer was breaking the law! MIMS wins this round until the Manhattan Circumswim Association gets it's act together. I'm going to ask pre-MIMS Manhattan record setting swimmer Diana Nyad if she'll be the charter president.

    Also, the Harbor Patrol would like to know what radios you recommend, David.

    tortugaIronMikeJustSwimssthomasmiklcct
  • david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member

    I have 2 Icom radios mounted, and 3 icom handhelds ( one is a spare in case someone's dies halfway through)

    ...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

  • Bob_SingerBob_Singer Member
    edited March 2016

    GarbageBarge said:
    What's the agency that you need a permit from? You can't swim anywhere around Manhattan without a permit? Boat Basin? If you can, then what would stop you from just keep going? The tides aren't some unknowable secret that only NYC Swim has access to. I can't find anything on Google about permits.

    Ferries, cruise ships, barges, etc. are all something a kayaker or dinghy sailor would have to be alert to and follow the rules of navigation for. They don't need a permit. If one of these were escorting you, what would be the difference? Just asking.

    Replying to the question about the agency that issues permits for swims....I looked into this in detail for our Lake George Marathon Swim, which like MIMS, is in New York State. The permit we need in Lake George, which they also need for MIMS, is a NYS Regatta Permit, which is issued by the NYS Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation. See dec.ny.gov/regulations/93391.html

    We also need a local Village permit to use a dock and shore facilities.

    The issue of somebody bootlegging a swim has already come up to me (Event Director) for LGMS. A local resident told me "Your swim has inspired me to do the swim myself, and I plan to do it when you are doing it." I can hardly feel enthusiasm for that, but it is legal to swim anywhere in the Lake . Just be ready to dodge jet skis and drunken powerboat operators.

    What people get for their $500 entrance fee is the sanction (USMS) which includes insurance for them and their volunteers, a backup powerboat for each "pod" of swimmers, EMS services on the lake, protection from idiot boaters by police boats, a medical tent at the finish, some cool bling, software charts of the course, support if an emergency evacuation is necessary, some pre- and post-race social events, a little public acknowledgement of their awesomeness, and a sense of community.

    Chrisgreeneswimrn62IronMikeFlowSwimmersNoelFigartDanSimonellimiklcct
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member
    edited March 2021

    Among my many thoughts and dynamic opinion at this time, one thought has continued to circle...that of the "monopolistic" nature of these organizations.
    Although MSF Rules were not formed to thwart an established area's org, I think the essence and substance of following such rules should be considered as verifiable, not by the area org of course, but in the broader community.

    Costs and availability of some area swims governed by an org are restrictive, constrictive for too many swimmers who would otherwise want and be able to do such swim.

    ssthomasbethfrench
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited March 2017

    @DanSimonelli said: the "monopolistic" nature of these organizations...

    The only true monopolies (government-enforced) are the English Channel -- and possibly Gibraltar, though I'm not certain.

    All other sanctioning orgs, in order to maintain their legitimacy, need to provide "reasonable access" to swims. It's unclear how exactly to define "reasonable access."

    Is a one-year waiting list reasonable access? Probably. What about 3 years? 5 years? Not sure what the Cook Strait waiting list is currently.

    In any case, it doesn't seem fair to other swimmers who have gone through the proper channels, when one person jumps the queue for the sake of personal glory.

    @DanSimonelli said: Costs and availability of some area swims governed by an org is restrictive, constrictive for too many swimmers who would otherwise want and be able to do such swim.

    Maybe... but it's a slippery slope, and I'm wondering if you (as a CCSF representative) would accept the same argument from someone who wanted to swim Catalina unsanctioned.

    thelittlemerwookierosemarymintDanSimonelligregoc
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    Evan @evmo

    Yes, certainly those are among my many thoughts, so I was only posting the one that was recurring at this time.

    We've personally discussed this area together, so for the sake of this forum discussion, I'll clarify and elaborate.

    Of course I agree that there are definitive reasons for and need for an org to be created for a common swim.
    Safety procedures/protocols, rules for credibility/verifiabilty, historical record, community, etc.
    All good for our sport and mostly good for individuals.

    So, I was merely pondering the line, the dilemma in such a scenario and with the governance (over governance?) of such an endeavor.

    I'm not sure how much of a slippery slope it is.
    If it were, I'd think we would be seeing many more "bootleg" swims now with the consistent upward trend of popularity of our sport.

    And, if an org isn't satisfying the demand for a popular swim, then it likely will be replaced (NY) or another created to competitively coexist (Ka'iwi ~Molokai).

    Kellie
  • ssthomasssthomas DenverCharter Mem​ber
    edited March 2021

    evmo said:

    Is a one-year waiting list reasonable access? Probably. What about 3 years? 5 years? Not sure what the Cook Strait waiting list is currently.

    It's about 2-3 years, if you can get Phil to email you back. Even then, he doesn't give you a time slot- so I just have to keep my calendar open for anytime Late 2018 to early 2019. Super convenient... I first reached out to him in July 2015 and it took a YEAR to get info on how to pay him to secure a slot. For 2019.

    DanSimonelliIronMikemiklcctMvG
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member
    edited March 2021

    ssthomas said:

    It's about 2-3 years, if you can get Phil to email you back. Even then, he doesn't give you a time slot- so I just have to keep my calendar open for anytime Late 2018 to early 2019. Super convenient... I first reached out to him in July 2015 and it took a YEAR to get info on how to pay him to secure a slot. For 2019.

    This is what prompts my posted thought. :-?

    Christchurch2006
  • david_barradavid_barra NYCharter Member

    I think there are strong arguments for honoring established sanctioning bodies in the world of marathon swimming, however, I am also a firm believer that it is the obligation of said bodies to provide reasonable and cooperative access to aspirants. Failure to do so will indeed lead to swimmers looking for alternatives... and who could blame them.

    There is a bright side to the Cook Straight's extremely limited availability of slots.
    It inspired me to find bodies of water less traveled closer to home.

    ssthomasmalinakaslknightgregocthelittlemerwookieDanSimonellicaptainhaddockevmoKarl_KingeryIronMikesuziedods

    ...anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    david_barra said:
    I think there are strong arguments for honoring established sanctioning bodies in the world of marathon swimming, however, I am also a firm believer that it is the obligation of said bodies to provide reasonable and cooperative access to aspirants. Failure to do so will indeed lead to swimmers looking for alternatives... and who could blame them.

    There is a bright side to the Cook Straight's extremely limited availability of slots.
    It inspired me to find bodies of water less traveled closer to home.

    Yes, Demand Will always find a way.

    Yes, so much open water to explore…

  • So if there was an Oceans 7 accreditation organisation, they could set the criteria for each of the 7 swims, which recognised the current criteria of the prevailing organisation, but accepted alternative swims that met marathon swimming accepted criteria.

    Solobethfrench
  • lakespraylakespray Senior Member

    Maybe we should split this off into another thread. But what makes a "valid" swim association? It is valid for the association to be a single person, who may or may not get around to it? Are we required to give such a person deferential treatment just because there famous in our community? To me an association needs a real board of directors, it must have continuity if the founder/leader is unable to carry on, there are Lieutenants ready to take over. Additionally, if the association is unable to guide and observe a swim within two years of a qualified applicant making the request then it should be okay to go to an alternative including the MSF.

    evmodavid_barraSoloDanSimonelliKarl_KingerycaptainhaddockFlowSwimmerssuziedodsgregocssthomasbethfrench
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited March 2020

    @captainhaddock said: So if there was an Oceans 7 accreditation organisation, they could set the criteria for each of the 7 swims, which recognised the current criteria of the prevailing organisation, but accepted alternative swims that met marathon swimming accepted criteria.

    An "Oceans 7 accreditation organization" would, by its very existence, undermine all of the local organizations that sanction the constituent swims.

    This is why MSF doesn't recognize bandit Catalina swims (yes, we've been asked); it's why IMSHOF caught some flak a few years ago for sending out "Triple Crown" certificates; and it's why Steve Munatones, who invented the Oceans Seven, is careful that his published O7 ranking list reflects the official results of each of the local organizations.

    DanSimonelliKarl_Kingerycaptainhaddocksuziedodsgregocssthomas
  • evmoevmo SydneyAdmin
    edited March 2017

    @lakespray said: Maybe we should split this off into another thread. But what makes a "valid" swim association? It is valid for the association to be a single person, who may or may not get around to it? Are we required to give such a person deferential treatment just because there famous in our community? To me an association needs a real board of directors, it must have continuity if the founder/leader is unable to carry on, there are Lieutenants ready to take over. Additionally, if the association is unable to guide and observe a swim within two years of a qualified applicant making the request then it should be okay to go to an alternative including the MSF.

    Such a good comment, and I'm with you. I think a legitimate local sanctioning organization should be more than one person, and probably should have a formal board of directors. Additionally:

    • has clearly stated swim rules (preferably, in line with global norms)
    • has clearly stated standards for ratification (i.e., documentation requirements)
    • maintains a network of qualified independent observers
    • maintains and publishes reliable records of previous swims
    • preferably, is a government-registered nonprofit (such as 501c3 in the US)

    When there's some doubt about an organization's legitimacy or viability, it helps to have that conversation over the course of some time, to build community consensus, and to have an alternative org available to pick up the slack. The recent transition between NYC Swim and NY Open Water is a great case study.

    Either a sanctioning org is legitimate and worthy of respect, or it's not. With 100-some swims over 55 years in the Cook Strait, I'm not willing to dismiss Phil Rush's work and history because one person really wanted to swim in 2017.

    DanSimonelliKarl_KingeryIronMikesuziedods
  • Karl_KingeryKarl_Kingery Denver, COSenior Member
    edited March 2021

    An "Oceans 7 accreditation organization" would, by its very existence, undermine all of the local organizations that sanction the constituent swims.

    and

    lakespray said:
    ... what makes a "valid" swim association? It is valid for the association to be a single person, who may or may not get around to it? ... To me an association needs a real board of directors, it must have continuity if the founder/leader is unable to carry on, there are Lieutenants ready to take over. Additionally, if the association is unable to guide and observe a swim within two years of a qualified applicant making the request then it should be okay to go to an alternative ...

    So, to summarize, here is what I am hearing:
    1. All official ratification of swims, O7, EC, MIMS etc, must be under a "sanctioning organization" if there is one.

    1. If the swimming demand or conditions are not being met, it is plausible that a second sanctioning organization may rear its head (EG: English channel) and both of those organizations are now "sanctioning organizations" even if they don't recognize each other.

    2. "Bandit" swims should not be recognized until that time when a sanctioning organization can ratify the swim.

    3. Swims somewhere where there is not a sanctioning organization can be "Documented" by MSF.

    This logic seems to offer incentive for anyone to create a "sanctioning" organization and people could theoretically start creating many conflicting organizations. I think @lakespray's idea is a good one, not to supersede an organization's power but to define criteria and "recognize" those groups and "unrecognize" if necessary. Fortunately at this time, there are not a lot of double groups.

    This would exclude some swims, which could very well be valid marathon swims from the official swim list and might recognize others if the "sanctioning organization" was found deficient. It may be a fair balance, and I would hope that swimmers could petition a review panel if they felt the organization was being deficient. "re-ratification" might require inclusion of these "documented" swims.

    evmoSoloDanSimonellisuziedodsbethfrenchlakespraymiklcct
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    Love this forum \m/

  • gregorywannabegregorywannabe Senior Member

    This may or may not be useful/interesting info of how the Rottnest Channel Swim Association looks after Solo Crossing ratification:

    rottnestchannelswimassociation.com.au/solo-crossing-process/
    rottnestchannelswimassociation.com.au/retrospective-recognition/

    gw

    IronMikeevmoDanSimonellidc_in_sfbethfrenchBogdanZ
  • DanSimonelliDanSimonelli San Diego CASenior Member

    Thanks @gregorywannabe

    Good example

Sign In or Register to comment.