Has anyone tried this: http://static.abbottnutrition.com/cms-prod/abbottnutrition.com/img/Vital-1.5-Cal.pdf ? It's a medical product designed for people who can't eat anything normal. The dietician who recommended it to me says it doesn't taste like much of anything, but packs a lot of nutrition into a small volume. She also says it doesn't contain anything on the Olympic banned substances list. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has tried either this or something else that's designed primarily for medical, not consumer, use.
Each half hour 1 hammer gel (80 calories) and 10 fl oz of water. At he three hour point a double serving. During last 2 stops some liquorice to wash the salty taste. It was a completion swim, not a high effort race, so I wasn't burning that much I guess. In any case, it worked well. When taking the double dose I needed to hold back some gagging reaction because the gel is very concentrated. But once swallowed, no problems. I can't even think of taking anything solid.
I have a 15k race in a couple of weeks, reckoning on one 750ml bottle per hour (6 bottles in the Kayak to be safe) water based with one scoop Carbo-Pro, 1/2 scoop protein powder, 1 isotonic tablet and one crushed paracetamol.
Can you get liquid paracetamol? In the kids' sections maybe? Might go over a little better.
Yup, I used kids' liquid paracetamol and ibuprofen on my EC, injected into my feeds. Tastes rank but easier to swallow than tablets and wastes less time.
Just finished "swim around Charleston" on maxim. The only issue I had was when my kayaker offered me gatorade, orange gatorade. I almost lost it then. I used gatorade and gu on my 2000 EC swim. NEVER touched the stuff since. Can't bear the thought of gatorade, much less orange gatorade . I can use pretty much anything but the gatorade...
I am doing the Rottnest Swim in just over one months time (gulp) and still really struggling with my nutrition plan. Firstly, I can't tolerate any of the energy gels - the consistency is horrid and they make me vomit in combination with the waves/salt water. The second thing is I find the sports drinks very salty in taste, especially with salt mouth. As a consequence stop drinking them after about 90mins in favour of plain water, but obviously I am then not getting enough carbs and possibly not enough electrolytes and consequently fall apart about 2 hours into a swim. Have read all the suggestions on here which are really helpful, but if anyone has any other specific advice/tips I would be grateful. Can I just add maltodextrin directly to water? PS really considering the canned peaches and the snakes option!
I've had problems with malto-based products for the past couple of years (is it possible that tolerance changes with age?). After a couple of hours, I didn't seem to be digesting. I'd feel the liquid sloshing around in my belly. Eventually turning to nausea and vomiting. I had been using hammer products (heed, endurox, hammergel, etc) with great success for 15 years, but not any more. I tried many of the other popular feeds (Carbopro, Cytomax, Maxim), same result. Then I was reading the DIY feed thread, and came across Infinit Nutrition.
You go to the website and blend your own mix! You don't have to be a nutrition expert, either, as they have an option of filling out an online questionnaire (sport, objectives, feed preferences, physical attributes, past problems, etc) and it will generate a mix for you and give you a chance to modify it (with intuitive slider bar interface) however you want.
I got my own blend a month ago. It is the bomb (for me). I've done four 10K or greater swims since then (including 2 on back-to-back days) with zero problems. By adding high electrolytes, I haven't even needed my pickle juice (I frequently cramp on swims over 2 hours). I'm sold.
"Lights go out and I can't be saved
Tides that I tried to swim against
Have brought be down upon my knees
Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."
Some of the Clif Shot Blox flavors have caffeine, I like the orange ones for that. I also like the margarita flavor for the extra salt, since I tend to cramp. I usually down 3-6 of those before a swim (usually with a banana) and they function as time release calories and caffeine. I've never had a problem digesting them while swimming, but chewing them while swimming disturbs me somehow.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
I also like Clif Blox, although we have a household problem with my son stealing them...
Sometimes, I need something other than my liquid feed and that works well.
I also use Miso soup, which I love for hot feeds. Easy to digest, salty, and warms my cold Raynaud's fingers and toes. I look forward to those feeds every time.
And I usually feed every 1/2 hour, whether I want it or not.
I go every 30 minutes for the first 2 - 2.5 hours and every 20 thereafter.
I mix my bottles so that once I am at every 20 minutes, I am getting in 1.8 calories per pound of body weight per hour and I drink roughly 6 ounces of this mix per feed. I drink additional water to taste.
As others have mentioned, I use maltodextrin and have found it very easy way to get in the pretty high amount of calories.
Tried ginger in the past and while it kept me from losing my cookies, I still had the actual nausea.
To speak to another issue brought up, I use tylenol rather than advil specifically because of the kidney issues. Tylenol is harder on your liver but is less of a short-term risk than nsaids are and they give roughly equivalent pain relief for me.
In general when I talk to new long distance swimmers, I tend to find that their feeding plan doesn't use the amount of calories that experienced athletes are successful with.
I feed every 30 minutes, switching between liquids and solids on each of the feeds. My goals is to take in 300 calories within an hour.
Liquids are electrolytes of some type. Solids are what ever I can eat. Sometimes I use endurance type bars and other times real food. My favorite snack every was fresh cantaloupe at 7am after an all night swim.
I have used gel packs but I find they make my tummy upset. One can only eat so much gewwwwww.
tortuga said:
Coming from an ultra running background, I'm a caffeine addict. Anyone have any suggestions on how to get some caffeine in on long swims?
Buzz Bites. Loaded with caffeine. Small Chewy chocolate.. Love 'em.
I've done two 13 hour + swims with the same feeding regime but reduced the number of feeds for the second one. Fed after hour one and hour two, then switched to 45 minutes until 5 hours, when I moved to 30 minute feeds. Just used CNP Profuel, (250ml, warm, flavoured with summer fruits) with occasional bits of banana in fresh water swim, (and one cup of tomato soup!) and occasional chopped peaches in syrup for salt water swim. Hardly any solid food. Keeping it simple! Will do the same for Zurich and perhaps stick to 45 minute feeds until after 8 hours. I've discovered from the 9 x 6 hour+ training swims I've done in the past 2 years that I have a sudden energy dip after 3 hours, every time, which is why I move to 45 minutes after 2 hours. I sometimes feed on 10k swims, but mainly just because I like food. I can survive a 10k without.
I am a fan of NUUN.
Not a fan of UCAN superstartch, while it does appear to work for others, I bonked every time I used it for anything. I also really hated the way it was marketed locally where I live as some sort of weight loss product.
I have to say that as of the Chesapeake Bay Swim yesterday, I'm a UCAN convert. I had a PB&J about two hours before the start so I had something in my stomach, then I drank about 16oz of UCAN 30 minutes before. I hadn't used the stuff in a race before, so I brought two gels with me, assuming I would need them. I felt the so strong the entire way across that I didn't use the gels at all. No bonk whatsoever. This is was a first for me - I will usually need at least one if not two gels during a race that long.
I'm looking to pull together a nutrition plan for a 50 hour solo lake swim and am wondering if anyone has suggestions. I have been function with the assumption I should feed every 30 minutes and consume app 300 calories per hour. My two main challenges are 1) I am a vegan and 2) length of time on the water - gel packs and sports drinks will get very tiring and will not be enough.
Hi All,
Over the years I've noticed that it's rare that two swimmers have the same feeding regimen. It has become more scientific than when one Brit crossed Gibraltar on port wine and fruit, and Abo Heif preferred hamburgers and chicken. The trend now is, of course, towards gels and sports drinks.
There is no "one-size-fits-all" program, but I'd be interested in a cross section of opinions. Please share your feeding routine, including food or drink of choice, frequency and amount, and what adjustments you make for water temperature. The results of the unofficial "poll" will be posted here.
Thanks.
"waterworld"
admin note: this post was originally the start of a new thread, but was merged into a previous thread on the same topic.
Not a lot of experience in this (longest swim so far, 7 miles, but some 5+ mile swims in the mix) but it's about food and that always strikes a responsive chord!
Tried and didn't stay with: dates ... yes, my nutritionist friends tell me good things, but they take too long to ingest and I'm slow already;
Tried and likely will use again:
Perpetuem cafe latte--this one surprised me... I like coffee but wasn't sure how it would go down while I was swimming... it worked fine, pretty much agreed with me;
Trader Joe's vanilla protein shake--As with Perpetuem, tasted okay, agreed with me, kept me together.
Glukos Energy gummies--quick to eat, tasted fine, agreed with me (Clif shots were okay too, but I liked the Glukos better)
I never seem to care for most sports drinks, prefer water--but again, when I do feel the need, the Glukos sports drink probably is the least undesirable. But I don't normally like sports drinks.
looking for some help on nutrition - it seems that carbopro won't be making hydra c5 in good flavors again this year and last year i used ucann mixed with carbopro but it still tasted chalky which i didn't really enjoy. Has anyone tried Skratch? Found it in a bike store (because there aren't any stores of marathon swimming) and it tastes good- similar levels of sugar and salt. it looks like a relatively clean product (see below) - any callouts good or bad? Thanks!
The mixture you used last year and Skratch seem to be "chalk and cheese", as the English would say. Last year's was more of a complex carbo mix (albeit with maltodextrin's slightly odd properties) and Skratch is more of a simple carbo mix. If you liked the complex carbo mixture (other than the texture), you can always just get pure maltodextrin and then add some flavoring and electrolytes on your own. (Hammer "Endurolytes" are pretty good.) On a long swim, I'm pretty sure Skratch would give me stomach problems due to the amount of simple carbos.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
I did a 30K swim on nothing but Maxim and had no hunger at all, I used to mix in goo but no more. Maxim gives some upset stomachs but not me, so of course you'd want to test it first. I swear by the stuff and plan 3 or 4 20+ mile swims this year on nothing but Maxim. And no, they aren't paying me, but I'm willing to listen.
j9swim said:
looking for some help on nutrition - it seems that carbopro won't be making hydra c5 in good flavors again this year
I started ordering custom blended powders from Infinit Nutrition about a year ago. You literally dial in exactly what you want using a cool slider bar interface. I imagine you could just look at the back of your carbopro hydra C5 and imitate the blend. I like being able to have the same basic formula for every swim but being able to make tweaks based on the unique demands of each.
"Lights go out and I can't be saved
Tides that I tried to swim against
Have brought be down upon my knees
Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."
Have you tried mixing Carbo pro with something else, like an electrolyte/sports drink? I've mixed it with Gatorade Prime and my recent favorite, Golazo (organic, coconut water based). The mango-lime flavor goes well against the taste seawater. I've also added nuun to Carbo pro for flavor and electrolytes.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
Swam the Length of Tahoe this summer -= 22 miles, 65 degree water. 11 1/2 hours
Food:
1 scoop Generation UCann (plain) mixed with 12 oz water (usually 3 oz per feeding)
1 egg (whites only) - every 2 1/2 hours
Electrolyte solution (Hammer); no sugar - whenever I wanted to supplement
I’ve read this thread and most of the linked articles and have scrawled the wider internet for answers but to no avail. I need some day-to-day nutrition advice (not just race day nutrition). My increase in swim training has seen my weight plummet…some may think this isn’t a bad thing…but I wasn’t really that weighty to begin with. I definitely can’t afford to lose anymore. Now I’d like to avoid simply using this as an excuse to increase by Pizza Hut dosage and actually eat healthy food. Does anyone have any great tips/links to diet plans/meals that people can eat day-to-day which preferably take account of being stuck in an office most the day?
Sam said:
Does anyone have any great tips/links to diet plans/meals that people can eat day-to-day which preferably take account of being stuck in an office most the day?
I've been really happy on the LCHF (low-carb high-fat) diet. As has my doctor.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
I fear this is a dumb question, but I've searched the archives, and the Google, and even Google Image searched trying to visualize how people carry nutrition during races! I've seen the dry bags and flotation devices for training, but can't figure out what's allowed/appropriate for races. So, where the heck am I supposed to PUT my nutrition if I don't have a boat feeding me?
I'm doing Swim to the Moon 10k in August. I've done a couple 5ks, but this is my first 10k. My finish time goal is under 3:40, if things including training go well, I think 3:20 isn't out of the question. I've done a few triathlons, including a 70.3, so I have a good idea of what my stomach can tolerate over hours (the answer: not much). There will be aid stations with GU/Gatorade, but I know better than to trust my stomach to those things. I plan to use Tailwind, all-liquid nutrition if I can manage it.
There is a special needs bag at 5k, but I'm afraid I'll bonk if I wait until then to start sipping calories. I'm also concerned that I won't be able to get enough down at the halfway point, and will struggle through the second half. Successful nutrition in triathlon has meant, for me, frequent, small, consistent sips. I'm ample-chested, and could probably shove a small handheld running bottle between my boobs, but chafing!
Suggestions? Help? Someone pointing me to the obvious...?
@amkonet - For short races, or races with neutral support like that, I carry some Gu in my suit, tucked into my waist band. Since swim to the Moon had mile markers, I ate a gu every mile, and I had a bottle with ~400 calories at the 5k turnaround.
Swim to the Moon is a good swim. I enjoyed it.
bluemermaid9Boca Raton, FL, United StatesSenior Member
I had some pretty severe dehydration after GCBS the year I did it. It was hot, I was really slow, I spent a ton of time fighting the current (swam at 45 degrees to my direction of travel for a while), and somehow missed the first water boat. So I swam for 3:22 on a dixie cup of warm water and pack of justin's nut butter I had in my bathing suit. Not my best day, that's for sure.
If I ever did it again, I'd probably try the collapsible bottle trick (thanks, @bluemermaid9 !) - but like anything else, I'd try it in training first. Especially if you think you'll need to mix your nutrition stronger than normal.
After 3 years on UCAN (switched to combat GI issues), last August I decided to drastically change my carb heavy daily diet to LCHF. After 6 weeks on keto, I completed an 11 1/2 hour swim on minimal caloric intake. Only 2 feeds of UCAN at 5 hours & 7 1/2 hours. Never felt hungry; Crew insisted I feed. 2nd feed did not stay down. Hydrated on the top & bottom of each hour (using UCAN Hydrate product) and supplemented w/ Endurolyte capsules as I was cramping badly first half. Not a perfectly executed swim, but lessons were learned. Now, fascinated w/ the concept of using body fat as fuel, I plan to test my own personal limits. How long can I last using only stored body fat as fuel? It's my little summer science experiment. Have connected w/ other keto endurance athletes, but mostly runners & triathletes. Interested in connecting w/ other fat-adapted marathon swimmers to exchange notes.
BTW, for training swims, I tow my own feeds using the donut hole shaped SaferSwimmer towfloat. Fits 2 bike bottles. A friend got permission to use her towfloat at GCBS to carry meds. @MoCo check w/ the RD, or as mentioned tuck GU & small bottles in your suit. Be safe...don't want to lose anymore swimmers in that race.
JBirrrd said:
After 3 years on UCAN (switched to combat GI issues), last August I decided to drastically change my carb heavy daily diet to LCHF. After 6 weeks on keto, I completed an 11 1/2 hour swim on minimal caloric intake. Only 2 feeds of UCAN at 5 hours & 7 1/2 hours. Never felt hungry; Crew insisted I feed. 2nd feed did not stay down. Hydrated on the top & bottom of each hour (using UCAN Hydrate product) and supplemented w/ Endurolyte capsules as I was cramping badly first half. Not a perfectly executed swim, but lessons were learned. Now, fascinated w/ the concept of using body fat as fuel, I plan to test my own personal limits. How long can I last using only stored body fat as fuel? It's my little summer science experiment. Have connected w/ other keto endurance athletes, but mostly runners & triathletes. Interested in connecting w/ other fat-adapted marathon swimmers to exchange notes.
This is helpful! Thank you! I've been thinking something like this stuck in my suit. Gu aren't a good option for me (I can't handle them in the best of conditions while cycling, never mind during swimming), so I was trying to figure out how to manage what I like. I'll definitely rehearse in training to see how/if I chafe and how my body reacts.
Are the edges of that collapsible bottle soft enough to not scratch you?
"Gu aren't a good option for me (I can't handle them in the best of conditions while cycling, never mind during swimming), so I was trying to figure out how to manage what I like."
@amkonet If Gu doesn't do it for you, there are now many options out there that differ significantly from Gu, but boast similarly convenient packaging. Huma gels, Untapped Maple syrup, nut butters...it might be worth checking out some of these kinds of options for the convenience factor.
I just bought a soft hydration flask from Hydrapak that hopefully will be comfortable stuck in my swim suit. I plan to try it out with my beloved Tailwind on a few 4000y+ swims to see if I hate it or it's workable. I'd really love to be able to stick with what I know works for other endurance activities, but also have plenty of time to try new things, too.
I recently tried some Untapped from a friend, and liked it pretty well on a run, but it was one packet, during one run, so not thorough testing. I'm nervous about the fiber in Huma, but might try them at the pool and see how I do.
Thanks for pointing me in a direction here, everyone!
First of all I'd like to thank everyone for being extremely helpful and replying to my previous posts. I've learned so much in preparation for my Key West 20k and I'm beyond grateful to have such a valuable resource. edit: forgot to thank loneswimmer's blog as well because that in combination with this forum has been a goldmine. Now for the questions!
I'm sure this varies from person to person, but how many thermos/jugs/bottles/etc. should I bring? I'm mainly concerned about the sizes of each bottle as I have no idea whether I should bring gallon jugs or many little bottles such as these in a cooler.
I am trying several options for nutrition but I think I'm going to go with Sportquest Carbo as it was recommended here in the forum and it seems to be identical to Maxim.
Lets say I go with that, the instructions on their website says "DURING: for each hour of activity MIX at least Two (2) scoops in 20 - 26 oz. of cold water and sip throughout activity". Should I pre-make 3-4 bottles and have my kayaker refill them with water + nutrition whenever they have a chance? Or should I bring 7-8 bottles ready to drink?
The race is Swim Around Key West 20k and its going to be very hot+salty. Thanks again!!!
My personal opinion is that you really don't want your kayaker to deal with mixing things, that cannot end well.
Ideally you'd have the feeds divided up into one feed bottles (e.g. if you were feeding every 30 minutes using your Carbo feed, you could use 12oz bottles with one scoop), this makes life really easy for the kayaker, they hand you a full bottle and then stash the empty away. Get a mesh bag for the bottles and some bungies and the kayaker should likely be able to deal with it.
The main disadvantage with this sort of approach is having to buy a ton of small feed bottles (and transport them if you don't think you can pick them up locally). You should be able to find small kids drink bottles from Rubbermaid and others though relatively cheaply.
If you really hate the large number of small bottles approach (or your kayaker has very limited storage space) you could use fewer multi-feed bottles, though that makes life more complicated (it is much easier to drink an entire bottle than judge drinking 1/2 or 1/3 of a bottle at a feed stop).
Some other things:
Do a long test swim using your planned feed and see how you feel about it. Straight maltodextrin has no real taste and you may want something to make it more palatable.
plan for your swim to take longer than you think and have extra feeds. Maybe have one bottle feeds for the bulk of the swim and an emergency reserve large bottle in case you can't hold the pace you thought you could.
@allanl16 - I've only done one attempt at a swim that warm, and I don't think I'd do that again personally, but I've been using Carbo-pro for a few years now, with great success.
I use 32oz Rubbermaid Chug bottles for my feeds. In a 32 oz bottle, I use 4 scoops of carbo pro, and 1 packet of gu (I'm not terribly picky on brand or flavor as long as the flavor isn't chocolate or coffee related), this brings about 500 calories. Historically I have fed every 20 minutes or so, but at Chattanooga, I'm going to experiment feeding every 30 minutes. Kayaker keeps track of that time, resetting the watch when I give the bottle back to them. A 32 oz bottle lasts me roughly 2 hours, and I generally plan on averaging 2 mph (which is sometimes a bit optimistic), plus one extra bottle. (so, for a 25k, ~15.5mi, I'd plan 5 bottles, 4 bottles to get through 8 hours, + 1 bottle contingency)
I mix the bottles before the swim. Usually I measure out the carbo-pro the night before, and add the gu and water the morning of the swim, and put the bottles in a soft sided cooler to keep on the kayak. This generally does a good enough job keeping my feeds cool. (When I did Kingdom Swim a couple years ago, the water was cool enough that I asked my wife to keep the active bottle on the deck of the kayak to warm the bottle up a little bit, for Key West, this likely won't be an issue for you).
Especially in choppier water, I agree with David, asking your kayaker to mix anything sounds like a recipe for potential disaster.
This feels like I rambled a bit, I hope I got at least somewhere close to a useful answer for you
To determine how many bottles you'll need, you need to know how much liquid you'll consume over 20K and what size bottles you'll have with you. That is different for everyone. For me, I consume 8 ounces of liquid every 30 minutes. I use 24 ounce bottles. That means I get three feeds out of every bottle. A 20k would take me roughly 6 hours. Feeding every 30 minutes means I need 12 feeds. 12 feeds / 3 feeds per bottle = 4 bottles. And I'd always take one extra, to be safe. And if it's hot, maybe some extra water.
But, @timsroot is right- it's really hard for the kayaker to be mixing things for you during the swim, so you'll want everything ready to go for him/her. (And I do the same- put all the powder in my bottle the night before and just add water/flavor the next morning.)
I've also had good luck with putting dry ice in a cooler to keep things really cold for the hot swims.
But, you do need to know how much space the kayak has for storage. If it's not much, then a mesh bag with your bottles is the way to go.
I like these: http://polarbottle.com/
They help keep your drink warm or cold, not like a thermos, but a bit better than a regular bottle. I prefer the squirty bike style bottles rather than chugging my drinks, if I slug down too much at once, it wants to come back up. Also, if you drop it, your stuff stays in and lake/sea water stays out.
I mix about 16-20 oz. Gatorade, 2 scoops Carbo Pro, 1-2 nuun hydration and fill the rest of the way with water. I also get about 3 feeds (every 30 min) out of a 24 oz. bottle. Definitely premix everything. I add a Clif shot on the hour. We used these carabiners on the bottle leash: https://www.niteize.com/product/S-Biner-Stainless-Steel.asp The narrow shape makes it easy to thread a Clif Shot package onto it, because of the "litter leash".
Practice feeding to determine how much you need, how often and how well you will tolerate your formula over time. If practicing in the pool, stop at the deep end and feed without holding onto the wall. If you can, practice feeding in rough water, it can be difficult to get your feed down while getting tossed around in the waves.
Like Sarah says, bring extra. We lost a couple of Clif Shots in Saguaro Lake. Better to have too much than not enough.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
When I did Key West, we had a mix of different random bottles to keep me going. Test them before committing to them on the race. I found one kind that you really had to suck to get anything out of them (they were a type of baby bottle). Yes, pre-mix so you can keep moving. If your kayaker is ahead trying to mix, s/he's not navigating for you.
Have a couple that are fridge temp, for the first few feeds, then the rest you can freeze overnight. They'll help to keep the other bottles cool and they'll melt over the course of the swim. In fact, your kayaker can bring out the next feeding as s/he puts away an empty bottle and they'll melt pretty quickly.
I had a small, soft sided cooler that we carried on the airplane with all the empty bottles. For the bottles without something to hook a retrieval line on, I used Velcro wire bundle straps from Home Depot wrapped around the neck of the bottle, leaving a little loop to hook onto. It made the feeding process go very quickly for us both.
Don't forget to bring plenty of sunscreen and water/drink of choice for your kayaker too. It's a long day for them as well.
Comments
Use whatever doesn't make you puke.
Each half hour 1 hammer gel (80 calories) and 10 fl oz of water. At he three hour point a double serving. During last 2 stops some liquorice to wash the salty taste. It was a completion swim, not a high effort race, so I wasn't burning that much I guess. In any case, it worked well. When taking the double dose I needed to hold back some gagging reaction because the gel is very concentrated. But once swallowed, no problems. I can't even think of taking anything solid.
Can you get liquid paracetamol? In the kids' sections maybe? Might go over a little better.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
I've had problems with malto-based products for the past couple of years (is it possible that tolerance changes with age?). After a couple of hours, I didn't seem to be digesting. I'd feel the liquid sloshing around in my belly. Eventually turning to nausea and vomiting. I had been using hammer products (heed, endurox, hammergel, etc) with great success for 15 years, but not any more. I tried many of the other popular feeds (Carbopro, Cytomax, Maxim), same result. Then I was reading the DIY feed thread, and came across Infinit Nutrition.
You go to the website and blend your own mix! You don't have to be a nutrition expert, either, as they have an option of filling out an online questionnaire (sport, objectives, feed preferences, physical attributes, past problems, etc) and it will generate a mix for you and give you a chance to modify it (with intuitive slider bar interface) however you want.
I got my own blend a month ago. It is the bomb (for me). I've done four 10K or greater swims since then (including 2 on back-to-back days) with zero problems. By adding high electrolytes, I haven't even needed my pickle juice (I frequently cramp on swims over 2 hours). I'm sold.
"Lights go out and I can't be saved
Tides that I tried to swim against
Have brought be down upon my knees
Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."
@Spacemanspiff: UCAN "super-starch" is another option you might consider.
More here:
http://marathonswimmers.org/forum/discussion/387/low-carb-keto-adapted-swimming
and here:
http://www.generationucan.com
Coming from an ultra running background, I'm a caffeine addict. Anyone have any suggestions on how to get some caffeine in on long swims?
Gu with caffeine
Caffeine pills. Mash them up, dissolve in your regular liquid feeds. With all due caution, obviously.
Some of the Clif Shot Blox flavors have caffeine, I like the orange ones for that. I also like the margarita flavor for the extra salt, since I tend to cramp. I usually down 3-6 of those before a swim (usually with a banana) and they function as time release calories and caffeine. I've never had a problem digesting them while swimming, but chewing them while swimming disturbs me somehow.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
I also like Clif Blox, although we have a household problem with my son stealing them...
Sometimes, I need something other than my liquid feed and that works well.
I also use Miso soup, which I love for hot feeds. Easy to digest, salty, and warms my cold Raynaud's fingers and toes. I look forward to those feeds every time.
And I usually feed every 1/2 hour, whether I want it or not.
Not sure how useful this will be for people as my feed schedule for supported swims is pretty ultra simple.
I feed once an hour on 300ml of single strength luke warm Maxim very lightly flavoured with summer fruit cordial.
Longest swim on this feed schedule, so far, was 13 hour fresh water swim in 13-15C (57f).
For some context I am a big bloke with decent fat reserves and on the slower side of average for speed.
For unassisted OW swims up to 10-12k and pool training sessions I don't tend to feed at all.
Not sure how I missed this the first time out.
I go every 30 minutes for the first 2 - 2.5 hours and every 20 thereafter.
I mix my bottles so that once I am at every 20 minutes, I am getting in 1.8 calories per pound of body weight per hour and I drink roughly 6 ounces of this mix per feed. I drink additional water to taste.
As others have mentioned, I use maltodextrin and have found it very easy way to get in the pretty high amount of calories.
Tried ginger in the past and while it kept me from losing my cookies, I still had the actual nausea.
To speak to another issue brought up, I use tylenol rather than advil specifically because of the kidney issues. Tylenol is harder on your liver but is less of a short-term risk than nsaids are and they give roughly equivalent pain relief for me.
In general when I talk to new long distance swimmers, I tend to find that their feeding plan doesn't use the amount of calories that experienced athletes are successful with.
I feed every 30 minutes, switching between liquids and solids on each of the feeds. My goals is to take in 300 calories within an hour.
Liquids are electrolytes of some type. Solids are what ever I can eat. Sometimes I use endurance type bars and other times real food. My favorite snack every was fresh cantaloupe at 7am after an all night swim.
I have used gel packs but I find they make my tummy upset. One can only eat so much gewwwwww.
Buzz Bites. Loaded with caffeine. Small Chewy chocolate.. Love 'em.
I've done two 13 hour + swims with the same feeding regime but reduced the number of feeds for the second one. Fed after hour one and hour two, then switched to 45 minutes until 5 hours, when I moved to 30 minute feeds. Just used CNP Profuel, (250ml, warm, flavoured with summer fruits) with occasional bits of banana in fresh water swim, (and one cup of tomato soup!) and occasional chopped peaches in syrup for salt water swim. Hardly any solid food. Keeping it simple! Will do the same for Zurich and perhaps stick to 45 minute feeds until after 8 hours. I've discovered from the 9 x 6 hour+ training swims I've done in the past 2 years that I have a sudden energy dip after 3 hours, every time, which is why I move to 45 minutes after 2 hours. I sometimes feed on 10k swims, but mainly just because I like food. I can survive a 10k without.
I am a fan of NUUN.
Not a fan of UCAN superstartch, while it does appear to work for others, I bonked every time I used it for anything. I also really hated the way it was marketed locally where I live as some sort of weight loss product.
I have to say that as of the Chesapeake Bay Swim yesterday, I'm a UCAN convert. I had a PB&J about two hours before the start so I had something in my stomach, then I drank about 16oz of UCAN 30 minutes before. I hadn't used the stuff in a race before, so I brought two gels with me, assuming I would need them. I felt the so strong the entire way across that I didn't use the gels at all. No bonk whatsoever. This is was a first for me - I will usually need at least one if not two gels during a race that long.
I use Vega's preoworkout drink which has a little bit more than electrolytes
I'm looking to pull together a nutrition plan for a 50 hour solo lake swim and am wondering if anyone has suggestions. I have been function with the assumption I should feed every 30 minutes and consume app 300 calories per hour. My two main challenges are 1) I am a vegan and 2) length of time on the water - gel packs and sports drinks will get very tiring and will not be enough.
Suggestions would be greatly appreciated
Hi All,
Over the years I've noticed that it's rare that two swimmers have the same feeding regimen. It has become more scientific than when one Brit crossed Gibraltar on port wine and fruit, and Abo Heif preferred hamburgers and chicken. The trend now is, of course, towards gels and sports drinks.
There is no "one-size-fits-all" program, but I'd be interested in a cross section of opinions. Please share your feeding routine, including food or drink of choice, frequency and amount, and what adjustments you make for water temperature. The results of the unofficial "poll" will be posted here.
Thanks.
"waterworld"
admin note: this post was originally the start of a new thread, but was merged into a previous thread on the same topic.
Not a lot of experience in this (longest swim so far, 7 miles, but some 5+ mile swims in the mix) but it's about food and that always strikes a responsive chord!
Tried and didn't stay with: dates ... yes, my nutritionist friends tell me good things, but they take too long to ingest and I'm slow already;
Tried and likely will use again:
Perpetuem cafe latte--this one surprised me... I like coffee but wasn't sure how it would go down while I was swimming... it worked fine, pretty much agreed with me;
Trader Joe's vanilla protein shake--As with Perpetuem, tasted okay, agreed with me, kept me together.
Glukos Energy gummies--quick to eat, tasted fine, agreed with me (Clif shots were okay too, but I liked the Glukos better)
I never seem to care for most sports drinks, prefer water--but again, when I do feel the need, the Glukos sports drink probably is the least undesirable. But I don't normally like sports drinks.
looking for some help on nutrition - it seems that carbopro won't be making hydra c5 in good flavors again this year and last year i used ucann mixed with carbopro but it still tasted chalky which i didn't really enjoy. Has anyone tried Skratch? Found it in a bike store (because there aren't any stores of marathon swimming) and it tastes good- similar levels of sugar and salt. it looks like a relatively clean product (see below) - any callouts good or bad? Thanks!
http://www.skratchlabs.com/collections/drinks/products/exercise-hydration-mix?variant=466781057
The mixture you used last year and Skratch seem to be "chalk and cheese", as the English would say. Last year's was more of a complex carbo mix (albeit with maltodextrin's slightly odd properties) and Skratch is more of a simple carbo mix. If you liked the complex carbo mixture (other than the texture), you can always just get pure maltodextrin and then add some flavoring and electrolytes on your own. (Hammer "Endurolytes" are pretty good.) On a long swim, I'm pretty sure Skratch would give me stomach problems due to the amount of simple carbos.
-LBJ
“Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.” - Oscar Wilde
I did a 30K swim on nothing but Maxim and had no hunger at all, I used to mix in goo but no more. Maxim gives some upset stomachs but not me, so of course you'd want to test it first. I swear by the stuff and plan 3 or 4 20+ mile swims this year on nothing but Maxim. And no, they aren't paying me, but I'm willing to listen.
I started ordering custom blended powders from Infinit Nutrition about a year ago. You literally dial in exactly what you want using a cool slider bar interface. I imagine you could just look at the back of your carbopro hydra C5 and imitate the blend. I like being able to have the same basic formula for every swim but being able to make tweaks based on the unique demands of each.
"Lights go out and I can't be saved
Tides that I tried to swim against
Have brought be down upon my knees
Oh I beg, I beg and plead..."
Have you tried mixing Carbo pro with something else, like an electrolyte/sports drink? I've mixed it with Gatorade Prime and my recent favorite, Golazo (organic, coconut water based). The mango-lime flavor goes well against the taste seawater. I've also added nuun to Carbo pro for flavor and electrolytes.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
Swam the Length of Tahoe this summer -= 22 miles, 65 degree water. 11 1/2 hours
Food:
1 scoop Generation UCann (plain) mixed with 12 oz water (usually 3 oz per feeding)
1 egg (whites only) - every 2 1/2 hours
Electrolyte solution (Hammer); no sugar - whenever I wanted to supplement
Fed every 30 minutes on a 3 hour rotation:
30 minutes - Generation UCann
30 minutes - Generation UCann
30 minutes - Generation UCann
30 minutes - Generation UCann
30 minutes - Egg Whites / Electrolyte
30 minutes - Almond butter/Coconut packet / Electrolyte
REPEAT.
No issues.
I’ve read this thread and most of the linked articles and have scrawled the wider internet for answers but to no avail. I need some day-to-day nutrition advice (not just race day nutrition). My increase in swim training has seen my weight plummet…some may think this isn’t a bad thing…but I wasn’t really that weighty to begin with. I definitely can’t afford to lose anymore. Now I’d like to avoid simply using this as an excuse to increase by Pizza Hut dosage and actually eat healthy food. Does anyone have any great tips/links to diet plans/meals that people can eat day-to-day which preferably take account of being stuck in an office most the day?
I've been really happy on the LCHF (low-carb high-fat) diet. As has my doctor.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
I fear this is a dumb question, but I've searched the archives, and the Google, and even Google Image searched trying to visualize how people carry nutrition during races! I've seen the dry bags and flotation devices for training, but can't figure out what's allowed/appropriate for races. So, where the heck am I supposed to PUT my nutrition if I don't have a boat feeding me?
I'm doing Swim to the Moon 10k in August. I've done a couple 5ks, but this is my first 10k. My finish time goal is under 3:40, if things including training go well, I think 3:20 isn't out of the question. I've done a few triathlons, including a 70.3, so I have a good idea of what my stomach can tolerate over hours (the answer: not much). There will be aid stations with GU/Gatorade, but I know better than to trust my stomach to those things. I plan to use Tailwind, all-liquid nutrition if I can manage it.
There is a special needs bag at 5k, but I'm afraid I'll bonk if I wait until then to start sipping calories. I'm also concerned that I won't be able to get enough down at the halfway point, and will struggle through the second half. Successful nutrition in triathlon has meant, for me, frequent, small, consistent sips. I'm ample-chested, and could probably shove a small handheld running bottle between my boobs, but chafing!
Suggestions? Help? Someone pointing me to the obvious...?
@amkonet - For short races, or races with neutral support like that, I carry some Gu in my suit, tucked into my waist band. Since swim to the Moon had mile markers, I ate a gu every mile, and I had a bottle with ~400 calories at the 5k turnaround.
Swim to the Moon is a good swim. I enjoyed it.
Not a dumb question at all! I've struggled (and continue to struggle) with this same issue at GCBS. I wrote about it here:
http://blogs.marathonswimmers.org/bluemermaid/2016/07/10/great-chesapeake-bay-swim-2016-race-report/
Hope this helps!
I had some pretty severe dehydration after GCBS the year I did it. It was hot, I was really slow, I spent a ton of time fighting the current (swam at 45 degrees to my direction of travel for a while), and somehow missed the first water boat. So I swam for 3:22 on a dixie cup of warm water and pack of justin's nut butter I had in my bathing suit. Not my best day, that's for sure.
If I ever did it again, I'd probably try the collapsible bottle trick (thanks, @bluemermaid9 !) - but like anything else, I'd try it in training first. Especially if you think you'll need to mix your nutrition stronger than normal.
After 3 years on UCAN (switched to combat GI issues), last August I decided to drastically change my carb heavy daily diet to LCHF. After 6 weeks on keto, I completed an 11 1/2 hour swim on minimal caloric intake. Only 2 feeds of UCAN at 5 hours & 7 1/2 hours. Never felt hungry; Crew insisted I feed. 2nd feed did not stay down. Hydrated on the top & bottom of each hour (using UCAN Hydrate product) and supplemented w/ Endurolyte capsules as I was cramping badly first half. Not a perfectly executed swim, but lessons were learned. Now, fascinated w/ the concept of using body fat as fuel, I plan to test my own personal limits. How long can I last using only stored body fat as fuel? It's my little summer science experiment. Have connected w/ other keto endurance athletes, but mostly runners & triathletes. Interested in connecting w/ other fat-adapted marathon swimmers to exchange notes.
BTW, for training swims, I tow my own feeds using the donut hole shaped SaferSwimmer towfloat. Fits 2 bike bottles. A friend got permission to use her towfloat at GCBS to carry meds. @MoCo check w/ the RD, or as mentioned tuck GU & small bottles in your suit. Be safe...don't want to lose anymore swimmers in that race.
@JBirrrd, check out the Keto-adapted thread. There are others here who are LCHF.
We're all just carbon, water, starlight, oxygen and dreams
@JBirrrd \m/
This is helpful! Thank you! I've been thinking something like this stuck in my suit. Gu aren't a good option for me (I can't handle them in the best of conditions while cycling, never mind during swimming), so I was trying to figure out how to manage what I like. I'll definitely rehearse in training to see how/if I chafe and how my body reacts.
Are the edges of that collapsible bottle soft enough to not scratch you?
"Gu aren't a good option for me (I can't handle them in the best of conditions while cycling, never mind during swimming), so I was trying to figure out how to manage what I like."
@amkonet If Gu doesn't do it for you, there are now many options out there that differ significantly from Gu, but boast similarly convenient packaging. Huma gels, Untapped Maple syrup, nut butters...it might be worth checking out some of these kinds of options for the convenience factor.
I just bought a soft hydration flask from Hydrapak that hopefully will be comfortable stuck in my swim suit. I plan to try it out with my beloved Tailwind on a few 4000y+ swims to see if I hate it or it's workable. I'd really love to be able to stick with what I know works for other endurance activities, but also have plenty of time to try new things, too.
I recently tried some Untapped from a friend, and liked it pretty well on a run, but it was one packet, during one run, so not thorough testing. I'm nervous about the fiber in Huma, but might try them at the pool and see how I do.
Thanks for pointing me in a direction here, everyone!
First of all I'd like to thank everyone for being extremely helpful and replying to my previous posts. I've learned so much in preparation for my Key West 20k and I'm beyond grateful to have such a valuable resource. edit: forgot to thank loneswimmer's blog as well because that in combination with this forum has been a goldmine. Now for the questions!
I'm sure this varies from person to person, but how many thermos/jugs/bottles/etc. should I bring? I'm mainly concerned about the sizes of each bottle as I have no idea whether I should bring gallon jugs or many little bottles such as these in a cooler.
I am trying several options for nutrition but I think I'm going to go with Sportquest Carbo as it was recommended here in the forum and it seems to be identical to Maxim.
Lets say I go with that, the instructions on their website says "DURING: for each hour of activity MIX at least Two (2) scoops in 20 - 26 oz. of cold water and sip throughout activity". Should I pre-make 3-4 bottles and have my kayaker refill them with water + nutrition whenever they have a chance? Or should I bring 7-8 bottles ready to drink?
The race is Swim Around Key West 20k and its going to be very hot+salty. Thanks again!!!
My personal opinion is that you really don't want your kayaker to deal with mixing things, that cannot end well.
Ideally you'd have the feeds divided up into one feed bottles (e.g. if you were feeding every 30 minutes using your Carbo feed, you could use 12oz bottles with one scoop), this makes life really easy for the kayaker, they hand you a full bottle and then stash the empty away. Get a mesh bag for the bottles and some bungies and the kayaker should likely be able to deal with it.
The main disadvantage with this sort of approach is having to buy a ton of small feed bottles (and transport them if you don't think you can pick them up locally). You should be able to find small kids drink bottles from Rubbermaid and others though relatively cheaply.
If you really hate the large number of small bottles approach (or your kayaker has very limited storage space) you could use fewer multi-feed bottles, though that makes life more complicated (it is much easier to drink an entire bottle than judge drinking 1/2 or 1/3 of a bottle at a feed stop).
Some other things:
Do a long test swim using your planned feed and see how you feel about it. Straight maltodextrin has no real taste and you may want something to make it more palatable.
plan for your swim to take longer than you think and have extra feeds. Maybe have one bottle feeds for the bulk of the swim and an emergency reserve large bottle in case you can't hold the pace you thought you could.
http://notdrowningswimming.com - open water adventures of a very ordinary swimmer
@allanl16 - I've only done one attempt at a swim that warm, and I don't think I'd do that again personally, but I've been using Carbo-pro for a few years now, with great success.
I use 32oz Rubbermaid Chug bottles for my feeds. In a 32 oz bottle, I use 4 scoops of carbo pro, and 1 packet of gu (I'm not terribly picky on brand or flavor as long as the flavor isn't chocolate or coffee related), this brings about 500 calories. Historically I have fed every 20 minutes or so, but at Chattanooga, I'm going to experiment feeding every 30 minutes. Kayaker keeps track of that time, resetting the watch when I give the bottle back to them. A 32 oz bottle lasts me roughly 2 hours, and I generally plan on averaging 2 mph (which is sometimes a bit optimistic), plus one extra bottle. (so, for a 25k, ~15.5mi, I'd plan 5 bottles, 4 bottles to get through 8 hours, + 1 bottle contingency)
I mix the bottles before the swim. Usually I measure out the carbo-pro the night before, and add the gu and water the morning of the swim, and put the bottles in a soft sided cooler to keep on the kayak. This generally does a good enough job keeping my feeds cool. (When I did Kingdom Swim a couple years ago, the water was cool enough that I asked my wife to keep the active bottle on the deck of the kayak to warm the bottle up a little bit, for Key West, this likely won't be an issue for you).
Especially in choppier water, I agree with David, asking your kayaker to mix anything sounds like a recipe for potential disaster.
This feels like I rambled a bit, I hope I got at least somewhere close to a useful answer for you
To determine how many bottles you'll need, you need to know how much liquid you'll consume over 20K and what size bottles you'll have with you. That is different for everyone. For me, I consume 8 ounces of liquid every 30 minutes. I use 24 ounce bottles. That means I get three feeds out of every bottle. A 20k would take me roughly 6 hours. Feeding every 30 minutes means I need 12 feeds. 12 feeds / 3 feeds per bottle = 4 bottles. And I'd always take one extra, to be safe. And if it's hot, maybe some extra water.
But, @timsroot is right- it's really hard for the kayaker to be mixing things for you during the swim, so you'll want everything ready to go for him/her. (And I do the same- put all the powder in my bottle the night before and just add water/flavor the next morning.)
I've also had good luck with putting dry ice in a cooler to keep things really cold for the hot swims.
But, you do need to know how much space the kayak has for storage. If it's not much, then a mesh bag with your bottles is the way to go.
I like these:
http://polarbottle.com/
They help keep your drink warm or cold, not like a thermos, but a bit better than a regular bottle. I prefer the squirty bike style bottles rather than chugging my drinks, if I slug down too much at once, it wants to come back up. Also, if you drop it, your stuff stays in and lake/sea water stays out.
I mix about 16-20 oz. Gatorade, 2 scoops Carbo Pro, 1-2 nuun hydration and fill the rest of the way with water. I also get about 3 feeds (every 30 min) out of a 24 oz. bottle. Definitely premix everything. I add a Clif shot on the hour. We used these carabiners on the bottle leash: https://www.niteize.com/product/S-Biner-Stainless-Steel.asp The narrow shape makes it easy to thread a Clif Shot package onto it, because of the "litter leash".
Practice feeding to determine how much you need, how often and how well you will tolerate your formula over time. If practicing in the pool, stop at the deep end and feed without holding onto the wall. If you can, practice feeding in rough water, it can be difficult to get your feed down while getting tossed around in the waves.
Like Sarah says, bring extra. We lost a couple of Clif Shots in Saguaro Lake. Better to have too much than not enough.
It's always a bad hair day when you work at a pool.
When I did Key West, we had a mix of different random bottles to keep me going. Test them before committing to them on the race. I found one kind that you really had to suck to get anything out of them (they were a type of baby bottle). Yes, pre-mix so you can keep moving. If your kayaker is ahead trying to mix, s/he's not navigating for you.
Have a couple that are fridge temp, for the first few feeds, then the rest you can freeze overnight. They'll help to keep the other bottles cool and they'll melt over the course of the swim. In fact, your kayaker can bring out the next feeding as s/he puts away an empty bottle and they'll melt pretty quickly.
I had a small, soft sided cooler that we carried on the airplane with all the empty bottles. For the bottles without something to hook a retrieval line on, I used Velcro wire bundle straps from Home Depot wrapped around the neck of the bottle, leaving a little loop to hook onto. It made the feeding process go very quickly for us both.
Don't forget to bring plenty of sunscreen and water/drink of choice for your kayaker too. It's a long day for them as well.