Nutrition / Feeding Mega-Thread

IronMike

And here is the promised start to our "Nutrition" discussion...

loneswimmer

I having chocolate for breakfast as I'm reading this.

IronMike

Chocolate is not just for breakfast anymore...

Sharko

A quart of steel cut oats 1-2 hours before a long swim....carb drink before jumping in and then a carb drink that stays down at the hour and then every 1/2 hour. General nutrition should include high quality protein after a long work-out with vegies and no refined carbs in the evening such as bread...do that in the morning or at lunch...etc, etc, etc I have done a lot of this so ask questions of my or others at the South End Rowing Club.

Sharko

Kate_Alexander

Can anyone advise if the nutrition plan should be different for a stage swim? I'll be doing 27k one day and another 27k the next. Are there different protein or carb considerations? Sharko - thanks for mentioning no bread for the evening meal.

I'm a newbie to these distances so welcome any input.

david_barra

Can anyone advise if the nutrition plan should be different for a stage swim?

Last year I swam 7 consecutive days to cover the 120 miles of 8 Bridges... between 4 hours and 9.5 hours per day. I kept to what has become my standard feed plan... all liquid 285 cal/hr. Recovery is important... PROTEIN!, as is keeping well hydrated between stages.

loneswimmer

Dave, obviously no problem sleeping with all the maltodextrin buzzing around inside?

I can never swim the night after a long training swim if using malto carbs. Did a 20k training recently and I only used 1 bottle of Maxim, I used more of my smoothie instead and I actually slept that night. Of course after day 2 I'm sure you would have slept anyway.

david_barra

Its not the malto that keeps me up at night. Every swim I've ever done > 11 hours has left me in an achy feverish state for the night... sweats, mouth throat sinus sore, lungs hurting etc...
I love this sport!

loneswimmer

I'd like to hear more discussion surrounding and subsequent to the Peter Attia webinar during the winter, which evmo covered on his blog. The basic thrust was carbs bad, protein good and a ketogenic diet is best for maximised energy utilization during a long swim, once you are already keto-adapted to this diet.

I haven't seen any arguments with the science and evmo has followed up on it, but has anyone changed or considered doing it this year for a swim? Or has anyone already done it coldish water? Which was a question that didn't arise on the webinar.

One of the things Peter Attia mentioned was fat loss, something might be great in theory or even practice but not much use to those of us in cold water who need our bioprene. I do know one aspirant who changed to the Atkin's diet this winter and after the first week adjustment, had no energy deficiency problems and he of course lost some weight. But afaik, his wasn't a long term to do this for his Channel swim.

I recently (last week) found a malto/superstarch/5% protein http://www.sponser.ch/g3.cms/s_page/79220/s_name/productdetail/s_level/10030/s_product/1035, but that's still mostly similar to how marathon swims have been done (and I won't get to try it on a sea swim for months until the sea warms up more anyway).

And finally, as evmo pointed out, we all love our carbs, right? So... any further thoughts?

Sharko

I recently have been using Malto, Waxy Maize and Whey Protein...seems to satisfy the energy and heat needs....Waxy Maize seems to burn longer than the Malto and Whey seems to give balance to the mix...tried it on a 49f swim from Pt Bonita to Aquatic Park on February 8th of this year...might be what I use on my next swims???

mrfinbarr

Interesting comment @loneswimmer re the low carb option. I've been maintaining (well trying to anyway) a low carb diet since August last year but in order to lost weight rather than as a fuel supply source for marathon swims. I think the science behind it is straightforward enough: once your body goes into ketosis there's a energy supply there which will last much longer than the carbs contained in the blood supply, provided, of couse, you're carrying enough fat.

Tomorrow I intend to do a 12k sea swim in Sandycove so I'll let you know how I get on with this fuel supply.

Kate_Alexander

Can anyone advise if the nutrition plan should be different for a stage swim?

Last year I swam 7 consecutive days to cover the 120 miles of 8 Bridges... between 4 hours and 9.5 hours per day. I kept to what has become my standard feed plan... all liquid 285 cal/hr. Recovery is important... PROTEIN!, as is keeping well hydrated between stages.

Thanks, Dave. One of my crew will be wearing the CIBOWS cap you gave me, a bit of inspiration every time I look up at the boat.

WaterGirl

I'm using CarboPro or bulk maltodextrin. I'm having two issues.

First, I don't mind the taste of the feed, but it feels like a punishment to try to choke it down so fast. The feed itself doesn't make me sick, but the act of feeding leaves me dangerously close to a gag reflex. I try to take 50 calories in 5oz of liquid. Any advice on this?

Second, it seems like I need more calories than I should. I'm only up to 5,500 yards for my long swim. I swim at 1 in the afternoon. I eat a reasonable breakfast and a decent lunch. I have a big snack after my morning yoga class. Then, before my swim, I take 200 calories in 10 oz of liquid. I'm fine for the first mile (a little over 30 minutes), and then I take about 50 calories. Yesterday, I took a small feed at 2,500 yards and another one at the 2-mile mark. Those last two were probably only about 25 calories.

I used to only take 100 calories before starting, but I got seriously hungry before the first mile and could never get ahead of it after that.

I appreciate any feedback.

evmo

How are you flavoring your malto? If you don't like the taste you're doing it wrong :-) It should be delicious! I've tried all sorts of fruit juices & combinations... apple-cranberry is a personal favorite. Gatorade could work as flavoring, too. Nick Adams famously endorses Tesco Summer Fruits, but I'm not sure it's available in the States.

WaterGirl

Thanks. I like the taste pretty well, but I can probably improve it. I use water and cranberry juice. It would probably taste better with more juice and less water.

It's the gulping action that gets me, though. It feels like a punch in the stomach.

evmo

More juice will probably help. Be sure to dial down the malto a bit to compensate for the extra sugar. Also....the cranberry juice might not be sweet enough. That's why I combine it with apple.

No need to gulp unless you're really trying to race. Swim the Suck isn't the FINA circuit :-)

Re: your second question. I'd also say something is not quite right if you're having energy problems after only a couple miles. Even your glycogen stores alone should get you through a 2-hour workout with just water. Could you eat a bigger lunch? Also try bringing some higher-density calories - gels, or even solid food.

Sharko

Try using a wide mouth plastic botttle put head back and just pour in down...no gulping just pour it and go....you might practice this out of the water first to get the feel...

KarenT

I've never got the hang of gulping stuff down - it just flies straight back up and out again (sorry...). I've settled on a narrow sports-top bottle and just take the extra time it takes to get it down and keep it down. I know that faster is better, but I've never been able to master the super-fast feed. Given that, on a long swim, I reckon it's better to slow down a bit and get the full 300ml down me safely, and then paddle on.

loneswimmer

Definitely a wide neck bottle for me, otherwise I swallow too much air and can't get the feed in. because I'm trying to suck it. I have one friend who practised endlessly his feeding from a suck sports bottle for the EC, and could take consistently 300mls in 10 secs after practicing. (He'd just practice with water and use unflavoured Maxim). it worked in the EC for him.

If I want to add flavour to Maxim, I use Miwadi, an Irish squash (like the Tesco one) but remember you can add Maxim to anything since it's pretty tasteless (so tea, coffee, cordial, juice) , and after 5 hours of so, you can't really taste anything anyway. And I agree with evmo, you should have enough energy for two hours or a bit more most days unless you are overtraining and undereating. I have however seen people think they have no energy, because they were under the impression the body couldn't do much exercise without eating first.

mrfinbarr, it wasn't you I was thinking of with the lo-carb, I forgot you were on that, you used for the 7 mile swim on saturday though?

david_barra

I think we should have a video chug-off... stay tuned for my entry.

evmo

Try using a wide mouth plastic botttle put head back and just pour in down...no gulping just pour it and go.

Possibly the most practical skill from my college education?

WaterGirl

I knew I was focusing on the wrong things in college! As if the liberal arts degree wasn't bad enough...

I went back thru my training log, and saw that my problems started when I switched to the wide-mouthed bottle (of Loneswimmer fame). I was feeding faster and easier from a 5-oz squeeze bottle. I haven't tried pouring the feed into my mouth. I'll experiment with that. I'd like to make that bottle work since I can clip it to my swimsuit.

I think I'm eating enough. I could be over training a little. I'm doing a lot of yoga, and that takes a lot out of me. (I can't believe how hard yoga is!). I have a pretty hard yoga class in the morning before my long swim. Maybe that depletes my glycogen reserves. I don't have any other symptoms of over-training, though.

dc_in_sf

@WaterGirl you might also be just hitting dehydration (especially given the yoga).

I'm definitely a newcomer to this, I would have thought you'd want to be going through a bottle (16-24oz) an hour of fluid and it sounds like you are only drinking one.

bobswims

I most recently used NALGENE Tritan bottles with a (somewhat) wide flip top. I am trying to cut down my feeding times and am thinking about using squeezable bike water bottles. Anyone have any thoughts?

Franco

If you like to mix with gatorade, the 24oz have an easy twist cap squeeze bottle. I like that when you travel by air, you can bring the maltodextrin without any bottles. You can usually find these in most CVS or Walgreen stores when you get to destination (CVS near dinner in Chattanooga). Drink a little off top and mix right in bottle. Cut the end off a cone coffee filter for a nice funnel. Bring a couple extra filters in case they get wet.

swimmer25k

Depending on the conditions (temperature), I'll drink every 6-15 minutes. Its better to overhydrate at the beginning and spread your feeds as the swim goes on and you are urinating regularly. Once you're dehydrated, there's no coming back.

I drink mostly out of cups. If seawater gets into it; I'll dump it out and get another one. For hydration, I'll drink Gatorade and Ultrafuel for carbs. I'll mix in water, gel, or some candy only at the end of a swim. I feel that I crash harder after taking gel or other sugars, so I try to limit them.

Attached is the link to Part 1 of my English Channel swim. At 13:00, 15:20, 18 (good audio edit!), and 20 minutes into the movie you can see how I feed. I don't waste any time talking to crew, because they can't tell me anything that I already don't know. All comms are off a dry erase board with few words printed big. You can't read sh*t down at the water level.



Chris

nvr2late

To Watergirl, I have a Master swim from 5:30 - 7:00 AM 2 days a week. (Plus many other hours/week, but for purposes of this comment, I refer to these workouts) I used to have half banana and half bowl of oatmeal before early morning swims. Then, I read Dover Solo by Marcia Cleveland, and she suggests (with disclaimer about her medical knowledge of the facts) that it may be a good idea to swim on an empty stomach early in the morning and that your glycogen stores wil be sufficient for a few hours. (also as per evmo above) She suggests also that this technique will help you body to become accustomed to tapping glycogen stores in the liver, which often causes trouble to swimmers in the 6th hour, as your body is switching over to convert fuel. I was reluctant at first, I really thought that I needed a good breakfast, sounds like common sense, but now, I only drink water before my early workouts - at least 24 ounces and I have a nalgene of water poolside. This is working GREAT for me! I typically swim 4K in the mornings and I have no trouble powering through these workouts. I have found that I swim more efficiently any time of the day, with less food - then I have a good recovery meal post swim.

evmo

She suggests also that this technique will help you body to become accustomed to tapping glycogen stores in the liver, which often causes trouble to swimmers in the 6th hour, as your body is switching over to convert fuel.

@nvr2late Small clarification - the idea of swimming on an empty stomach is to train your body to oxidize fat, not glycogen. Glycogen is the primary source of energy, because it's easily converted to glucose - but it is in limited supply. What you need in a channel swim is to easily "switch over" to burning fat, a much more plentiful source of energy.

Here's the relevant passage from Dover Solo:

[Mike Oram] suggested that I go into my long pool swims on an empty stomach so my body would learn how to burn fat effectively. Since I did not eat before my morning workouts I was already doing this, thus simulating the physiological condition after swimming for a few hours. My system was already learning to switch over from its initial stores of carbohydrates and glycogen to fats right from the start of a swim."

ssthomas

I'll let @evmo ponder the whys and hows for us, but I can speak from years of morning practices and say that I do better on an empty stomach, especially in the morning. Even if I'm going really long first thing, I'm best sticking to mostly nothing for breakfast then feeding on my maltodextrin mix. I've also found that I feel a lot better when I'm eating enough protein, both during the day and post workout. For long swims, i've started mixing a smidgen of protein mix in with my malto. Seems to curb my hunger much better than a gel or energy bar. However, I think every body is different and you have to find what works best for you- trial and error.

And I mix straight apple in with my water and malto. It's delicious when I'm training and gag worthy any other time....I do not like it less than an hour in. My stomach just can't handle it.

IronMike

ssthomas wrote:

And I mix straight apple in with my water and malto.

I am totally new to this feeding thing, but what do you mean by "straight apple"? Do you mush up an apple and add it?

WaterGirl

Thanks to all for the suggestions. I've relaxed on rushing thru the feeds. I'm actually not feeding any slower, but I'm not worried about the time. And I've been pouring the feed in rather than gulping it back. Those two things have helped a lot.

I'm still doing my long swims in the pool, so my feeds get really hot sitting out there, even if they're partially frozen when I start. Yuck! That problem should solve itself when I move my long swims to the lake--hopefully next week.

I stopped doing yoga on the morning of my long swims. Since then, I haven't had any problems with getting hungry on the swim.

It works best if I take 200 calories right before I start and then feed as needed during my swim--usually 30 calories or so per mile. Yesterday, I skipped the pre-feed to try to do a better job of training my body to burn fat. That works fine for the swim--I have a little less oomph, but it's okay. But when I do it that way, I am EXHAUSTED afterward. I have no energy for the rest of the day. Do you think that's worth it?

I never used to "feed" before swimming--my coach suggested it last summer when I was complaining of fatigue. I take 100 calories before a normal practice, 200 before a race or a long swim. Nothing before an easy practice. When I do that, I almost never have a problem with fatigue. I usually feel fully recovered from a practice by the time I'm back in the car.

evmo

@WaterGirl, would one of these (with ice) help keep your drink cold in the Arizona heat?

The exhaustion you feel sounds like glycogen depletion. In theory, it should get better. As you train your body to more readily burn fat, you'll preserve more glycogen.

WaterGirl

I should get one of those. I guess I'm in denial about the hot sun in March. Even when it's chilly on the pool deck, that sun just bakes whatever it touches.

nvr2late

@evmo, thanks for the correction about gycogen vs. fat metabolism - you are right and thanks for the proper quote from Dover Solo.

GKolack

Does anyone drink something warm when feeding such as broth just to warm up your body? I am looking at doing a long swim at the end of April. I would like to be prepared with some type of warm liquid in case I need it.

bobswims

nvr2late wrote:

I read Dover Solo by Marcia Cleveland, and she suggests (with disclaimer about her medical knowledge of the facts) that it may be a good idea to swim on an empty stomach early in the morning

I have the greatest respect for Marcia, but I found just the opposite to be true for me. When I race a 5K I do so with a mostly empty stomach. When I did triathlons my pre-race nutrition was primarily in liquid form. But as I started training for marathon swims and practicing feedings on long swims, I found I was getting a bit nauseous from all the liquid sloshing around in my stomach. I now start the morning of a swim with a large double serving of oatmeal made with non-fat milk (not water) with raisins and sugar (or honey). This keeps my stomach settled as I fill it with liquids (sometimes unintentionally).

Leonard_Jansen

I've used warm black tea. Relatively easy to get down (and stay down) and it adds some caffeine. Remember not to make it so hot that you can't get it down or it scalds your mouth. Also, if your teeth are hot/cold sensitive (like mine) the temp difference between the cold water and the warm liquid can be tough to deal with. I don't like warm endurance type drinks: warm + sweet = Leonard barfing.

-LBJ

ForeverSwim

@evmo - So, that's what you learned at Princeton and Stanford?
@bobswims - I would advise against the "squeeze" bottles, as they can become hard to squeeze when the water is cold (insulation gets all tight, plus you begin to lost strength in your hands due to the cold; already made that mistake once)
@GKolack - The combination I mention later in this post worked well when heated up during my Catalina swim. I have not used anything else heated up, but I have heard that some swimmers do use chicken broth. Doesn't really appeal to me.. The golden rule is whatever works for your stomach, and try it ahead of time!

I always remember Dean Karnazes talking about 500 calories, an hour prior to a long work-out. This has worked well for me, and then starting the "feeds" an hour (sometimes 30-min) into the swim. For a morning, or "average" daily morning work-out, I like to take down a sleeve of Clif ShotBloks and a hearty swig of my combination below...

Carbo Pro (Maxim) + Cytomax (Lactic Acid Buffer) = Perfect. If that doesn't work, revert back to peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and water, as it is God's gift to make us happy. I find that the Thermos Nissan Intak Hydration Bottle works the best, as it has the perfect pop-top lid that keeps seawater out, and the good stuff in. The built-in hard-plastic ring is perfect to attach to a clasp, flotation device and rope. It worked great for me in the middle of the Molokai.

coop1468

I am currently using Hammer Nutrition products for my training; Recoverite after a morning workout (4400-7000 meters), an occasional gel during a workout, and I tried Perpetuem during a 7000 meter swim to see how I would handle it. Does anyone else have experience with Hammer products for longer swims? I'm doing the Kingdom Swim 10 miler in July. Or do most agree that Carbo Pro/Maxim is the 'top dog' in nutrition and fueling?

Leonard_Jansen

coop1468 wrote:

I am currently using Hammer Nutrition products for my training; Recoverite after a morning workout (4400-7000 meters), an occasional gel during a workout, and I tried Perpetuem during a 7000 meter swim to see how I would handle it. Does anyone else have experience with Hammer products for longer swims? I'm doing the Kingdom Swim 10 miler in July. Or do most agree that Carbo Pro/Maxim is the 'top dog' in nutrition and fueling?

I tried Perpetuem several times last year and it did not work well for me. In fact, in both the 8 Bridges swim and the Rose Pitonof race, I bonked something awful. Out of desperation, I had my support add a Clif Shot gel to some of my later feedings and that helped tremendously. My current concoction is a mixture of malto, waxy maize, Accelerade, a little added whey protein and some electrolytes and this is working very well.

Concerning Carbo Pro & Maxim: Evmo has made the observation that these dissolve in water faster than other maltodextrins. If that is so, it means that the chain of glucose molecules in CP & Maxim is shorter (few glucose units bound together) than in other maltodextrins. Maltodextrin is not a fixed # of glucose molecules, but a range. I'm not sure what the implications are to human digestion, but perhaps Evmo's friend, Dr. Sullivan, would know. If it does turn out to be an advantage, one might be able to find a source of shorter chain maltodextrin at a better price than CP & Maxim.

-LBJ

coop1468

So Perpetuem did not go the distance. Thanks for sharing! I'll be doing a couple
6 or 7 mile training swims and will try malto and waxy maize. Is the Accelerade more for the taste? Are there any particular brands of maltodextrin that are recommended? Short chain vs. long chain? The fueling issue is clearly very new to me. The 10 miler will be my longest swim to date but look forward to doing more.

Sharko

carbo gain by Now Foods has pure malto @ $20 for 8 pounds and I have been using it and seems to work well...I too add Waxy maize and whey protein to the mix....by using straight products I know what I am getting and no more...used this mix on a very cold swim in February...

Leonard_Jansen

coop1468 wrote:

So Perpetuem did not go the distance. Thanks for sharing! I'll be doing a couple
6 or 7 mile training swims and will try malto and waxy maize. Is the Accelerade more for the taste? Are there any particular brands of maltodextrin that are recommended? Short chain vs. long chain? The fueling issue is clearly very new to me. The 10 miler will be my longest swim to date but look forward to doing more.

The accelerade is actually for adding a little sucrose (sugar) to the mix and not for the taste. In that regard it is similar to when I added the Clif Shots to my mixture. I've also decided that I want more calories than common wisdom dictates. I've heard figures like 110-125 calories per feeding, but I've upped that to 135-150 calories per feeding (every 30 minutes for me) in 12 fluid ounces of water and feel that works better. Accelerade has a 4:1 carbo:protein ratio, but I prefer more like 6:1 - less stomach upset for me. The maltodextrin I use is from GNC and no idea how long the chain length is. The one thing about waxy maize is that it seems to give the drink an almost astringent feel and can take a bit of getting used to. I add Hammer's Endurolytes to my mixture also.

Feeding is really the black art of open water swimming and you have to experiment to see what works for YOU.

-LBJ

coop1468

I will check out Now Foods and waxy maize, as well as whey protein. Appreciate the advice from both of you.

evmo

Leonard_Jansen wrote:

Concerning Carbo Pro & Maxim: Evmo has made the observation that these dissolve in water faster than other maltodextrins. If that is so, it means that the chain of glucose molecules in CP & Maxim is shorter (few glucose units bound together) than in other maltodextrins. Maltodextrin is not a fixed # of glucose molecules, but a range. I'm not sure what the implications are to human digestion, but perhaps Evmo's friend, Dr. Sullivan, would know. If it does turn out to be an advantage, one might be able to find a source of shorter chain maltodextrin at a better price than CP & Maxim.

Glad you brought this up. Here's my understanding of why Carbo Pro and Maxim dissolve quickly in water, while bulk maltodextrin (e.g., NOW Foods Carbo Gain, as @Sharko mentioned above) does not. (Caveat: I am not a chemist.)

There are several varieties of maltodextrin. Remember, it's technically a "food additive" - and endurance sports nutrition is just one of many applications.

The various types/grades of maltrodextrin vary in:

• dextrose equivalence (or DE. This is a measure of "degree of polymerization," i.e., chain length, i.e., how many glucose molecules are bonded together. Higher DE values indicate shorter chain lengths, and tend to taste sweeter.)
• pH
• particle size (measured as bulk density - g/cc)
• and, most relevant to this discussion: dispersibility

There is standard (spray-dried) maltodextrin, and then there is quick-dispersing (QD) maltodextrin. QD malto undergoes an additional step in the manufacturing process, called agglomeration. In this process, individual powder particles are "clumped" together, resulting in larger, more uniform particle sizes (note: this is not the same thing as molecular chain length). The final, agglomerated product is less dusty, freer-flowing, and... more readily dissolved in water.

Here's a helpful diagram:



How does all this relate to Maxim/Carbo-Pro vs. the bulk stuff? Quite simply: Maxim and Carbo-Pro are agglomerated, and the bulk stuff is not. Does this have any bearing on nutrition or digestion? As far as I can tell, no it does not. Particle size is irrelevant once it's dissolved in water (unlike chain length).

Another interesting twist: In the United States, most maltodextrin is manufactured by a single company: Grain Processing Corporation in Muscatine, Iowa, under the brand name "Maltrin." While I have no direct evidence of this, it's very likely that both Carbo-Pro and NOW Foods (and possibly even Maxim) use maltodextrin sourced from GPC - just different grades of it.

The Maltrin product best suited to sports beverages is known as QD M500. This is most likely what Carbo Pro uses. NOW Foods, on the other hand, (probably) uses Maltrin M100. The chemical properties of QD M500 and M100 are, as far as I can tell, identical. Both have DE values of 10. QD M500 is described elsewhere as the "agglomerated form of M100."

FWIW, I use the NOW Foods malto in my everyday workout drink, and find it perfectly acceptable. I usually make a big batch to use over several days though, so I don't have to wait for it to dissolve every time.

The obvious next question is: How/where can you buy QD M500? And the answer is, it's available only in two places (ET Horn Co. in La Mirada, CA, and JM Swank Co in North Liberty, IA), and only in 100-pound bags. 100-pound bags!

I haven't asked for a quote, but according to rumors on certain bike/tri forums, it's $100 for 100 pounds. At $1/pound, that's substantial savings over NOW Foods ($2.50-3.00/pound), and especially Carbo Pro ($9/pound).

I will try to get Sully on here to check my science...

WaterGirl

Carbo Gain is a pain to mix. The powder is very light, and it gets all over the place.

Here's what I do to make it easier:

I measure the Carbo Gain on a scale. I scoop the Carbo Gain into a glass measuring cup (meant for liquids). It has a spout that makes it easy to pour the powder into the container. My scale has a setting to ignore the weight of the container.

I put one cup of liquid in the bottom of the pitcher. Then I pour in the Carbo Gain. I mix it a little to make sure there is no Carbo Goo stuck to the bottom. Then I pour in the rest of the liquid. Then I stir it a little more, just to make sure it's not sticking to the sides or the bottom. It dissolves the rest of the way overnight in the refrigerator.

If you put all of the Carbo Gain in first, it sticks to the bottom of the pitcher. If you put all of the liquid in first, the powder flies everywhere when you pour it in.

rxleakem

I am new to the powdered feeding aspect of long distance swimming. My local natural food store had Carbo Gain, so I am looking at a big jug of it now. I will be doing the 10mile Kingdom swim in about two months - now what? :-?

Is there a method of determining how many calories I will need to consume during the race? I swam a 10k last year and was running on fumes during the last half mile since I only used gatorade and water. I have been following WaterGirl's posts, and the label says that there are 190 calories per 1/2 cup (50g) serving. Should I be adding some of this to each drink during the swim? Will evmo lap me?

Thanks for the help.

Sharko

you need many more calories than you think swimming...like 600 to 900 per hour...so your mixes should be rich/pretty thick...I am not sure if Mike Orams chart will show up below but he has looked at it critically...I know I start out with a lot of Steel Cut Oat calories about 1 1/2 hours before I ever get in the water and then 16 oz of feed before I start swimming and the 45 minutes later and then every 1/2 hour afterward....in my view a little better to be over fed and bloated than run out of gas.

Below is a simplified example of a calorie count chart.
the 1600 calorie held in reserve in the body is an average figure only (I understand that this can be increased a little by training) again if you know better let everyone know.
The 400 calories used in 30 mins is based on an average swimmer doing about 62/65 strokes a minute with effort.
Each swimmer uses a different number of calories depending on their metabolism but it is usually (I think) between 600 to 900 an hour).
If anyone can enlighten us on the subject please do as it is hard to find the answer, or how to estimate it, on the web.
I have based the chart on a standard recommended 60 gram (3 scoop) feed of maxium with around at least 500 mils of water - you need to read the calorific feed content and the mixing instructions on the pack of whatever you are going to use. Maxim is quoted because I know it and it's habits.
Gatorade, Lucazade, gel, gue and all the other multimix feeds need "special" consideration. I do not like them.
Note there is no electrolyte feed included and spillage and refusal to drink all the feed has been included
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

---

Calories in

---

Calories used/out

---

Calories replaced by feed

---

calories left to swim on
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

About1600 calories Approximate calories used The calories replaced by the Fuel left in the tank
held in reserve by the by the body between feeds Feed taken by the swimmer
body at start of swim

etc etc etc...rest on Channel swimmmer site

Sharko

I think feeding is so important for marathon swimmers that I wanted to post Forrest's comments where he recommends a new book out as well....key components for me are getting the calories in and keeping them in!!!

My well-worn bible of nutrition information is found here:
Sports Nutrition for Endurance Athletes

The title speaks for itself. Don't be fooled by the cover art, Monique goes in-depth for swimmers, too. This invaluable reference book sits next to my swim bag because it covers nutrition from the start of training, through the taper, across the Channel, and finally once you're safe back home.

Monique explains the chemistry and the biology of proper eating. She explains the challenges of fueling on-the-go. What to consider eating days before a swim, hours before, and during. Mike Oram said it best: Hydration is a swimmer's first concern. Chapter #1 of Monique's book is hydration.

In my mind, a big problem any swimmer faces -- concerning nutrition -- is keeping fluids "down". For hours at a time, a swimmer's stomach and mouth are on the same horizontal plane. Getting sloshed around the sea surface. All it takes is a little disturbance, and those fluids flow the wrong way. What long-distance swimmer hasn't experience this?

Therefore, it's in the best interest of every endurance swimmer to "test swim" their chosen fuel. You could have the best complex-carb drink available on the market, but it's all for naught if your body rejects it. First judge your fuel by the label. Which offers a proper ratio of carbs, proteins and minerals? Then what tastes best going down? What agrees with you after 6+ hours of swimming? After consecutive days of difficult training? What isn't completely awful on the way back up?

Mike Oram is absolutely correct: It's absurd the amount of time a swimmer will put into physical training with complete disregard to nutrition. I believe you ought to "train" your tastebuds and stomach, while you train your shoulders and mental fortitude. In my personal experience, Monique Ryan's "Sports Nutrition for Endurance Athletes" was the first step toward the Channel. There was plenty to study, learn and alter about my daily meal plans. My second step was slipping into a Speedo and, third, was jumping in freezing-cold water.

evmo

you need many more calories than you think swimming...like 600 to 900 per hour...so your mixes should be rich/pretty thick

Calories burned ≠ Calories consumed

If you burn 600-900 calories/hr during swimming, that doesn't mean you should attempt to consume 600-900 calories/hr.

There is a limit to how many calories the human gut can process, and for almost everyone it is far below 600-900/hr. Most textbooks (including the Monique Ryan book cited by Forrest) put it in the range of 240-300/hr, depending on body size. This range can be expanded slightly under certain conditions, including higher-intensity exertion, the addition of a small amount of fructose, and possibly cold water.

Some swimmers consume more than 300 cal/hr without gastric distress. Everyone is different. But for the average marathon swimmer looking for a first-time, reliable feeding strategy, trying to consume 600-900 cal/hr is a terrible idea.

better to be over fed and bloated than run out of gas.

It's not an either/or proposition. There's a range of caloric intake that - in conjunction with fat metabolism - will properly energize each individual. Over-feeding and under-feeding are both potential swim-enders. If either one happens, you've screwed up your nutrition.

Monique Ryan's book is good. Another good one is Sports Nutrition: From Lab to Kitchen, by Asker Jeukendrup.

I also listed a few relevant nutrition articles on a previous thread.

rosemarymint

I use the carbo gain and found that if you mix it up the night before, it dissolves on it's own. I use a metal measuring cup and a funnel to get it into what bottle I'm using to mix up the concentrate (I use a base for a 4th workout of 1 cup maltodextrin and 16oz apple juice.) Add the liquid, put the cap or lid on the bottle, give a few shakes to make sure everything is wet and let nature take it's time.

I'm a lot bigger than most swimmers and my caloric need is higher than people half my size (it's dropped as my fitness increased.) I find I need solids after hour 2 of any exercise, whether it's cycling, running or swimming. In addition to gels (hammer is my preference) I use roasted sweet potato chunks and homemade non-dairy bread pudding (made with coconut milk.) Both slide down quickly and don't bother my belly when working hard. I don't use nearly as much gel as I used to, once I increased the amount of malto in the liquid feeds and that's a great thing ($$$$!)